RPGM Tiles over-used or Misused?

[RyokuHasu]

So, it's been long said that RPGM tiles are over used and people should avoid them if possible, it can not be denied that a lot think it and some have even said it. However is the problem that they are over used or that people really don't know how to use them? Would they be so bad if more people used them "Correctly" or at least in a more appealing manner?

Personally I think that they are just plainly misused and we might have a more positive look about them if better mapping standards were used in games. There is a big difference between a map "thrown together" and a map that took time to plan and make. I wouldn't mind the tiles being "over- used" if more people put more thought into their maps. From day 1 of my project I've said I wanted to used the tiles to show an ok-game can be made using them. What are your thoughts?

[MCADAMS]

Your tileset and sprites basically _are_ your game. From an aspiring pixel artists standpoint, when I spend a good couple of hours working my own tilesets, sprites, resources, items, paperdolls, and animations, and then I see someone using tilesets and sprites someone else made, I just think "Where's the effort?" If you're trying to make a game that's memorable and successful, RPGM or any of those other tilesets already puts you at a big disadvantage.

[iSnow]

RPG Maker tiles are good, and if used properly are great, however I notice a lot of people sticking to RMXP tiles, and due to their constant use they don't appeal. Personally, I use RMVX tiles and I enjoy Macks set. I classify them as misused because some of the maps I've seen using the tiles are very nice. It's all about whether or not you use them properly and you make sure the foliage isn't the same everywhere. With RMXP you should have enough to use what is in the RTP to create decent landscapes, just apply variation and even change the hue of the trees or shrubbery and it looks different and conforms to nature. RMVX, on the other hand, practically requires you to use custom tiles, Mack's set is nice, although as seen in Crystalshire just arranging foliage and buildings on presets and placing them on the map looks good.

If you want to use them, you must use them properly and take advantage of the techniques the RPG Maker users have been using since forever. However, your custom tiles and sprites make your game unique and specific and always consider that first.

[Exception]

They're misused, not overused.

RM2K/3 & RMXP look brilliant, unfortunately, not many actually make them look good.

As for RMVX, they're fugly.

[Ne-o-x]

Misused.

Youcan make very nice maps using them.

But many of the new games that come are not focusing so much on mapping.

[Helladen]

Honestly, your target audience wouldn't be other game developers, and not very many people have seen RPG Maker tiles. I would like to clarify that they are overused, but it doesn't mean they can't be used/viable to use.

[iSnow]

I do agree with some of you on the RM2k And RMVX Part, personally despite RMXP's tile design, I see so much of the same tree foliage everywhere and at such proportions it looks bad. People who use vanilla RMVX tiles (You should not do this often) don't worry too much about so much of the same foliage because the tiles were designed to look that way.

I think the one thing people don't like about RMVX is the character sprites, and they are right for the most part but I can assure you at least twenty percent of the people who will read this have never tried RMVX Ace's char Generator that works wonders. However, I do enjoy Kaduki sprites (Google them, Kaduki RMVX Sprites) as a change of design for characters even though they do conform with RMVX's tileset styles.

And another thing, Everyone who uses RMVX seems to almost always have their proportions off. RMVX characters should either use small structures and keep everything around 1-3 tiles high, although buildings should NOT be two tiles high unless they are a two story building, this is a common mistake and does seem to take away from the design unless you use your own character sets. another way of doing things is using RMVX characters as proportions of an average human, and stick foliage and buildings of similar size to how RMXP did it. It sounds a bit weird for the proportions, but if you play with the two RTP sets you'll find a fit for a realistic sizing of the terrain.

Just my two cents, I've been using RPG Maker for a while and I know all the common techniques for mapping with these sets.

[Likestodraw]

I think it's a combination: many people simply don't know how to map decently or aren't willing to take the time to sit down and make it look good. With time and effort, RMXP and RMVX can look good, but to the average game developer, it's not worh time and effort. They simply want to slap something together and go around saying they made a game. I've been there. It's really the fact that SO many people who use RMXP and RMVX spend SO little time making things look decent.

On the other had, you see a bunch of people using them and no one creating their own graphics. Sure, many people who aren't game developers don't know of RMXP & RMVX, but that doesn't necessarily mean that you shouldn't spend some time trying to get some custom graphics. In reality, they're great for making a decent game just because, but if you happen to be wanting to use them commercially, you've got some problems.

I hope that you now can see why I am always so confused: I have to live with myself.

[RyokuHasu]

Thank you all for your responses. I was hoping to start an intelligent discussion on the merits of RPGM tiles and I believe it turned out better than I thought it would. Thank you for all being mature and decent.

Back on topic:

I see where you guys are all coming from while its true that people generally look for short-cuts, leading them to grab the first stuff they can (RPGM tiles), and since they are already cutting corners they cut corners while mapping. So it looks like in a few short post we've come to the conclusion that both the overuse and the misuse of these tile are attributed to people being lazy and as Likestodraw said:

> They simply want to slap something together and go around saying they made a game.

And if people just cared more about what they were doing that it might start to clean up both the issues. Do you agree with this? Or do you have a different opinion?

[TheLordOfTheManor]

I started making a game recently (couple of weeks, might release alpha when I have content up to level 15) and I use RPGM tiles. Why you ask? I'm a one-man team. It's just me, no one else. I'm a terrible artist. But I can map decently. I can't even draw a circle, A CIRCLE! My point is, there are many really fun games made using those tiles and in my opinion they are very visually appealing tiles and if used correctly (that's why I chose misused) you can make a really amazing game with them. Most people that use RPGM tiles are people that are using them right out of the package because it's already there and pre-made for them, but they end up failing because they think that owning a game and making one is the coolest and most fun experience ever (sorry little kids) but it's really only fun when you're finished. So most of them get bored and quit after a month. Their game was terrible anyways and had terrible maps because they didn't take their time because they were making a game for all of the wrong reasons.

http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/community/index.php?/topic/128917-everember-online-alpha-v08/

Everember is one example of a great game that uses RPGM tiles.

[Likestodraw]

> And if people just cared more about what they were doing that it might start to clean up both the issues. Do you agree with this? Or do you have a different opinion?

I agree with you. It people put time and effort into what they did, it would look a lot better, and people wouldn't be so sick of seeing games using RMXP and RMVX tiles.

[iSnow]

Likestodraw is indeed right on that one, if people put more effort into them we wouldn't be sick of them. The RPG Maker community has been mapping with skill ever since they took up Parallax mapping and even just modifying their tiles, thing is we don't see much of those people willing to take the time and build tilesets that are modified to their purposes and only Crystalshire has done this so far with it's preset buildings and modified foliage.

As I've said, there are simple ways to fix the problems were seeing with Eclipse's mapping in general, and the RPG Maker guys have known this for ages and have been fixing them since the beginning/

[Nook]

For me, it's to the point now that RM gfx are usually an eyesore to see. Their use makes a big impact on my first impression of a project. They're awesome possum tiles, really, but they're sooooo generic.

On the other hand, however, there have been a instances where I've actually enjoyed the scenery created with them. I've also come across edited versions of the tiles which really gave character and broke the monotony; personally I think that's always the best alternative.

tldr: a combination.

[Draken]

Both.

They are way over used, about 96% of the projects around here use them. And most of those projects use them poorly.

Personally I will not play your game if you don't use custom graphics.

[Marsh]

I am probably one of the only people who think they look great. Yes some games mess it up, but oddly enough i would rather play a well done rpg maker graphic game then a badly done or mediocre custom graphics ones.

Of course if you can pull off good custom graphics, then do it.

[TheLordOfTheManor]

> I am probably one of the only people who think they look great. Yes some games mess it up, but oddly enough i would rather play a well done rpg maker graphic game then a badly done or mediocre custom graphics ones.
>
> Of course if you can pull off good custom graphics, then do it.

+1

That's what I'm trying to say, they look really nice! But many people are making games for the wrong reasons and don't know what they're doing. No offense to some, but a lot of custom graphics I've seen around are… how do I put this... UGLY! I'm not saying I can do better but that's why I'm using RPGM graphics.

[Infuriated]

I think they're trickier to use than they appear, since it's so easy to find most people grab them up and blatantly misuse them. I've seen it done right, but 98% of the time It's just done wrong, modified or not modified I've seen some pretty impressive looking RPG Maker games using them (of course).

Mappings a skill like any other, and a lot of folks just can't discern for themselves if the map looks good or not and without experience to back it most think the horrible maps look good. What makes things worse, in any area, is when the majority of the community isn't made up of people with that particular skill and it's just one big circle jerk of new/unskilled people patting each other on the back for material that is hardly quality.

People just need to start comparing their work with things outside of their comfort zone and truly see how much they suck so growth can begin anew, instead of being satisfied with praise from people worse than them.

[Richy420Rich]

I can say they're overused and misused, but to find a game which pushes RPG maker graphics to the max is a game worth playing I think. It shows that the creator is doing his/her best with what talent they have. Custom graphics are sweet also but if one doesn't have the talent to make customs, then they must stick with what they're good at. While yes, they could take the extra time to learn but it also slows down game development. They can grab a team mate that is good in that area - But the rest of the game has to be up to par by the others standards..

And I say overused in the way of map detail, RPG maker graphics just don't offer a wide variety of detail which makes big maps look utter repeatitive, all graphics in this aspect (custom or not) are inevitably dealt the same hand, I don't mind seeing the same tree 4 times. But on a real note, I look down my street and I don't see a 'same' tree even 1 time. So I think repeatitiveness can push people away from playing also, it takes a damn good mapper to make sure that players can overlook a land filled of the same graphic, but also to make sure that the map fits the visual expectations of the game.

[Anna Comnena]

Are RPGM tiles overused? Of course. They are the only generally availible tilesets for this type of perspective that are out there. Every other option, while may have aesthetic qualities that make them superior, do not have the availiblity of content and variation that RPGM tiles have. You can cover almost every genre, and every environment, with RPGM tilesets. And have enough content for variations and details.

I disagree with trees, Richy; compared to every other generally availible tileset out there, the RMXP tilesets especially are veritable cornucopias of trees. That said, they do still only have a handful of unique individual trees. But also, as an interface design, you don't need or want every single tree to be unique; if they all are, what happens when you want to make a particular tree interactive to the player? Trees are trees. Yes they are all unique, but generally the abstract concept of "tree" overrides the individual characteristics of individual trees; because we don't need to scrutinize and evaluate every tree on an individual basis. Not that mappers don't have to use details and good mapping design to alleviate repetition; this is an important consideration most amatuer mappers ignore.

[iSnow]

Very good points Anna, I do agree. I find that if were looking at the same few trees over and over not only does it seem to take away from a realistic-like style but also doesn't allow for a lot of variation. Mixing and matching foliage of similar palette works pretty well for RMVX, RMXP just requires you to be a bit more complicated with how you use the trees.

Of course they are overused as well, because their availability and wide-spread coverage of genres that are possible with them is very large.

[RyokuHasu]

Well there was a new High-Fantasy pack released for VX-Ace just a bit ago, this pack is new and highly stylized to the point it makes the other tiles pale in compassion. If we could get a converted set of these and use them correctly we might forget all about the brand being over used for a bit.

I have a set of them I bought for my VX-Ace but they have yet to be converted for Eclipse use.

Here are the examples:

(and yes hard as it is to believe these really are RPGM tiles)



[zarz]

> Your tileset and sprites basically _are_ your game. From an aspiring pixel artists standpoint, when I spend a good couple of hours working my own tilesets, sprites, resources, items, paperdolls, and animations, and then I see someone using tilesets and sprites someone else made, I just think "Where's the effort?" If you're trying to make a game that's memorable and successful, RPGM or any of those other tilesets already puts you at a big disadvantage.

Downright Darius

[Murdoc]

I think they're often misused really. The mapping standards at eclipse sometimes pale in comparison to those of some individuals. All in all, I think if someone uses them properly a really nice game can be made. Here's a well done map in RMXP:


When's the last time you saw an eclipse title using RMXP graphics that had maps this nice?

And as for VX, it can be easy to misuse the tiles because theyre so generic. But here's an example of a nice map:


My thoughts are that the graphics themselves are not the problem. The mappers are. They are nice for the style they are done in. We get the feeling they are overused becaused they're often used poorly. Albeit, sometimes making nice maps becomes a priority instead of being rushed in an effort to pull off a game in record time. Good mapping takes time no matter what the style of graphics:


This might be an old title, but the mapping is good. When I see bad mapping being done with RM graphics I think what's the excuse? There is plenty to work with. It just needs to be used properly.

[Anna Comnena]

> When's the last time you saw an eclipse title using RMXP graphics that had maps this nice?

Any Eclipse game I mapped for. 

> When I see bad mapping being done with RM graphics I think what's the excuse? There is plenty to work with. It just needs to be used properly.

This is the truth.