Would the community support a C implementation?

[Admiral Refuge]

@Peteyyy:

> I'm assuming it'll be Stephan and/or Anthony doing most of the work on this and I'm pretty sure either of them could get the engine core out in no time.

I can't speak for Stephan, but I would definitely help write this.  I have very similar views to Stephan when it comes to programming efficiency (refer to [**Why your website should be written in C, not PHP**](http://anthonyianozi.blogspot.com/2011/05/why-your-website-should-be-written-in-c.html)), and though my naming conventions are different from Stephan's, and my programming style may be a bit more "sloppy" when nobody else is looking, we both seem to go to great lengths to produce optimal code.

Though Stephan knows much, much, more than I do.

@MrMiguu:

> [trollface.jpg]
>
> So will this C version of Eclipse use DirectX still or something else (what do you guys request)? How about socket-wise. RakNet?

It would be completely cross-platform, which means it would probably use OpenGL (or DirectX on windows, OpenGL on linux?  I haven't looked into what performs better).  As for the networking, it's best to use native sockets depending on what OS it's compiling on.

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

@Aero/EBrown:

> More than likely OpenGL. (T)He(y) might add DirectX or X11 support for Windows/Mac Respectively. I wouldn't get focused on it though.
>
> Thanks,
> Aero/EBrown

It'd be best to use native libraries/APIs depending on the platform.  WinAPI for Window's, X11's API for linux, whatever OSX uses, etc.  You could probably have the preprocessors sort out the code, so it's once source that compiles on most.

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

@Zeta:

> Until some 9 year old makes a youtube video on Flash Trainers… Though if they are effective on your mmo it's a fail.
>
> Java is the future. games like aion, guild wars... hell even RS. Make the client on whatever you want, but Java also has many pro's to being the server-side.

The reason I would want to stay away from Java (and .NET, and flash, etc.) is because I would rather the program be compiled into machine code and run directly on the processor, instead of being compiled into intermediate bytecode and ran in a virtual machine running on the processor.  The closer you get to the hardware, the better the engine will perform.

This is without taking into consideration the object-oriented programming that Java forces you to use, and how it can bring a great deal of overhead to your game (which is a reason I'm not dealing with C++ either).

P.S.
I don't want to make premature claims in this post.  The whole point of this topic is to see if the community would be on-board if Eclipse was rewritten in C; the above is just my speculation, and may or may not be how the engine is implemented.

[MarkMorris]

You should stick with VB just a newer version 2005 maybe? 2008 or 2010 are ok to.

[dpinoy13]

@MarkMorris:

> You should stick with VB just a newer version 2005 maybe?

LOL VB6 = 2006.
2005 is even older :P

[Admiral Refuge]

@DPinoy13:

> LOL VB6 = 2006.
> 2005 is even older :P

Assuming you're not joking/trolling, VB6 stands for Visual Basic 6, which came out in the 90s.  After that, Microsoft scrapped the VB6 platform for .NET (which is where you have Visual Basic .NET 2005, 2008, 2010, iirc).

[Ruins of Hell]

@DPinoy13:

> LOL VB6 = 2006.
> 2005 is even older :P

VB6 was not made in 2006\. It's Visual Basic Version 6\. Nothing to do with 2006\. Then there's .NET, which has a different naming scheme.

Warning - while you were typing a new reply has been posted. You may wish to review your post.

[aaaron]

C language is better to make MMO's in. VB6 isn't bad, but isn't a good one ethier. It's in the middle really.

[dpinoy13]

@Admiral:

> Assuming you're not joking/trolling, VB6 stands for Visual Basic 6, which came out in the 90s.  After that, Microsoft scrapped the VB6 platform for .NET (which is where you have Visual Basic .NET 2005, 2008, 2010, iirc).

ayt watv >.>

[crzyone9584]

It would be nice to see. Although then I'll have to set down and learn another computer language.. Oh well such is life.

[Admiral Refuge]

@crzyone9584:

> It would be nice to see. Although then I'll have to set down and learn another computer language.. Oh well such is life.

To be honest, C really isn't that hard of a language to learn.  Excluding some things like pointers, once you learn one language, you learn them all – the rest is syntax.

[crzyone9584]

@Admiral:

> To be honest, C really isn't that hard of a language to learn.  Excluding some things like pointers, once you learn one language, you learn them all – the rest is syntax.

I guess that is true. The think that gets me the most is the syntax of everything. Their should just be a uniform way of syntax lol

[Robin]

@Admiral:

> Okay man up, who's the sorry chap that voted "no"?  :O

I voted 'Other' because I'm still waiting for that Ada graphics library.

[kibbelz]

I would be interested :P

[erkro1]

Because Windows 8 wouldn't support VB6, it would be a great addition. ;)

[pixelspore]

Actually it would be good if there will be engine written in C programming language. But it will make it difficult to learn this language for me :D
im already learning VB and PHP all free time, C would be too much for me.
But ok these are only my thoughts :)

[dpinoy13]

@Robin:

> I voted 'Other' because I'm still waiting for that Ada graphics library.

well… now robin`s gone nobody is gonna make eclipse
so we might as well use C :/

[Rithy58]

@Admiral:

> This is without taking into consideration the object-oriented programming that Java forces you to use, and how it can bring a great deal of overhead to your game (which is a reason I'm not dealing with C++ either).

This is what I meant when I said
@Rithy58:

> And I see where you're going with the C and not the C++ or Java. So yeah, this might be great but I have a feeling, we're gonna have to wait a couple of years before we'll even have the Alpha.

OOP can be really confusing but it's easier to use if you really know it well.
So, for this community. I'm down for the Eclipse Engine in C. Maybe I'll even try to contribute ;)
And I think we can start with using OpenGL and include the option to switch to DirectX later on.

Sincerely,
Rithy

[Admiral Refuge]

@Pixelspore:

> Actually it would be good if there will be engine written in C programming language. But it will make it difficult to learn this language for me :D
> im already learning VB and PHP all free time, C would be too much for me.
> But ok these are only my thoughts :)

Here is an if-statement in PHP:
```
if($x > 8)
{
  RandomFunction();
  echo "Hello!";
}
else
{
  echo "Goodbye!";
}

```Here it is in C:

```
if(x > 8)
{
  RandomFunction();
  puts("Hello!");
}
else
{
  puts("Goodbye!");
}

```Once again, it's all just syntax.
@Rithy58:

> This is what I meant when I said
> OOP can be really confusing but it's easier to use if you really know it well.
> So, for this community. I'm down for the Eclipse Engine in C. Maybe I'll even try to contribute ;)
> And I think we can start with using OpenGL and include the option to switch to DirectX later on.
>
> Sincerely,
> Rithy

It's not really the fact that OOP can be confusing, but it's in general in inefficient – like, too much overhead -- you can read my [reasoning here](http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/smf/index.php/topic,350.msg758181.html#msg758181).

[juicypuffin]

I don't care if it's in C or not, but cross-platform would be fantastic as it currently can't run on my Mac.

[Godlord]

@Robin:

> Stephan.

Considering the majority voted yes, and considering there seems to be a majority who wants me to be the programmer or lead developer, I'll accept it. At least, when I am done with these two weeks of my final exams.

@MrMiguu:

> [trollface.jpg]
>
> So will this C version of Eclipse use DirectX still or something else (what do you guys request)? How about socket-wise. RakNet?

If I am the developer, it will use my self-written libmad library, which offers interfaces for networking, user interfaces, graphics (through OpenGL, Direct3D8, Direct3D9, Direct3D10 and Direct3D11), audio and several other things. When I was developing that library, and I still am, I focused on a few aspects: performance, user-friendliness, memory usage (including data-oriented design), flexibility, feature-richness and cross-platform interfaces.

@Zeta:

> Until some 9 year old makes a youtube video on Flash Trainers… Though if they are effective on your mmo it's a fail.
>
> Java is the future. games like aion, guild wars... hell even RS. Make the client on whatever you want, but Java also has many pro's to being the server-side.

The past, the present and the future are C/C++ and a thin flavour of Assembly. The game industry generally doesn't use anything else (but for a few exceptions). I can name so many games that were written in C/C++ and even in Assembly, as opposed to your Java games. Not to mention that those games were more successful.

Also, the only game that was fully programmed in Java, that you mentioned, is _Jagex' Runescape_. Bright future you've got there.

And for servers, generally everything cuts too short. Network programming is, to say the least, complicated. There are only a few libraries and programming languages that deal well with it.

@MarkMorris:

> You should stick with VB just a newer version 2005 maybe? 2008 or 2010 are ok to.

Staying with Visual Basic limits potential, staying with a Microsoft product in general, does limit potential.

@Admiral:

> To be honest, C really isn't that hard of a language to learn.  Excluding some things like pointers, once you learn one language, you learn them all – the rest is syntax.

The hardest part of C is using it properly with the lack of good libraries. The theory behind it is quite easy.

@Rithy58:

> OOP can be really confusing but it's easier to use if you really know it well.

OOP only has benefits when it is applicable, and it is far more not applicable than applicable. Most programming languages and programmers just enforce OOP to be everywhere, end up with a horrible design using all the kind of patterns a sane programmer never heard of, and then wonder why it is so slow (because cache misses aren't usually known to object-oriented programmers and sometimes hard to detect).

Regards,
  Stephan.

[Admiral Refuge]

@Admirаl:

> Considering the majority voted yes, and considering there seems to be a majority who wants me to be the programmer or lead developer, I'll accept it. At least, when I am done with these two weeks of my final exams.

All I can say, Stephan, is EPIC.  To be honest, if this goes down, I couldn't think of anyone at all that I would be more comfortable with, as head dev, than you.


[ToshiroHayate]

I believe you meant:

[damian666]

i just hope we wont make EO disappear, because some of us like vb6 just fine as is, but i have to admit, a engine by my fellow dutchie is gonna rock xd

Dami

[Yxxe]

@Damian666:

> i just hope we wont make EO disappear, because some of us like vb6 just fine as is, but i have to admit, a engine by my fellow dutchie is gonna rock xd
>
> Dami

This.

Also, is anyone actually taking on EO or are we leaving it as it is?

[damian666]

well, perhaps SOMEONE should step up?

IMHO, it should atleast be taken out of beta, so we got a nice shiny engine to promote, which is final.

rest of the stuff is easily done by tutorials anyway :)

thats my idea about it anyway.

Dami

[Yxxe]

@Damian666:

> well, perhaps SOMEONE should step up?

Was that aimed at me by any chance? :P