The evolution and state of Eclipse.

[DrNova]

I still personally think EO was a step in the wrong direction, or at least too narrow mined a step. Dont get me wrong, I like Robin and respect his talents, however EO was a realease only in the direction HE wanted to go, fitting with HIS expectations, and personal opinions.

Let me explain.

First off, I've heard mentioned many times, usually by Robin, that older versions you could not make a viable game with. This is not true. For one, look at Ambardia, made dith a so called "defunct" version. It has been expanded on massivley of course, but it started with a friendly version of EE, I believe.

Although I never saw them out to the end, I've had a few projects that were coming along quite nicely, had I had the time to finish them, they would have been fun games in their own right. And looking around these days, what has EO done? There are few active projects, and none of them are noteable at all either. Broswing through various "feature" lists show nothing but window dressing, no real gameplay enhancments in most cases.

I always believed moving to full VB coding was a bad idea, and still do.  Face it. Your making a hobbyists project. Theres a one out of a million your game will end up doing anything more then a small fan community. Visual basic 6 is an old language, and forcing people to learn it doesnt help anyone. Not to mention its not actively sold, besides as curios on ebay, most are probably illegal downloads. Eclipse was good for teaching game design and management, not coding.

But that accesability Eclipse used to have was severely restricted. The easier to learn and modify sadscripting versions were just abandoned, and god forbid anyone asks a question about them anymore. Everyone is gung ho for EO, and for no real good reason. The engine has very little to do with the quality of the games being made. And EO hasnt made an improvement in production around here either.

This used to be a hobbyists community, easy to jump into with plenty of tutorials and people willing to help, and failed or not, always a very healthy work in progress section.  Now its less friendly, less accesible, there is very little help learning the more advanced skill sets needed, and everyone is taking themselves too seriously.

I miss the old eclipse.

[mrmiguu]

I miss the old Eclipse too, Nova.

I use to contort the crap out of EE 2.7 – hell, I made a side-scroller. The old versions had an ugly GUI, forcing you to change it. Every game that wanted to look an ounce decent would make their own. Now, anyone can just use the EO cookie-cutter and shape a nice looking, simple ORPG. There's no more flavor. I know exactly what you mean. Times used to be different. SadScript, being slow, was enough for us. We used it with caution since VB6 was hard for some of us to obtain. It provided convenient on-the-spot features. This enhanced the productivity of amateur game makers.

[Justn]

@DrNova:

> This used to be a hobbyists community, easy to jump into with plenty of tutorials and people willing to help, and failed or not, always a very healthy work in progress section.  Now its less friendly, less accesible, there is very little help learning the more advanced skill sets needed, and everyone is taking themselves too seriously.
>
> I miss the old eclipse.

+1… Note: there are still like 5-10 people here that still are very helpful and understanding.

[DrNova]

YEah, I liked sadscript. It was easy as hell to learn, and I'm sorry, but VB6 isnt as easy to learn as people try to tout it as. Sure, maybe general methods are similar to sadscript, bu tthen add in all the different forms, packets, ect, its much more difficult, you cant jump into it with ease.

And I am sure there are, but the general mood I've noticed has been a bit stuck up. Used to be easier to get assistance, cause it was easier to learn, more people knew more.

The community was just more healthy and alive. Hell, I MISS Kreator's drama, at least was alive around here. The shoutbox was a respectable chatROOM. Was alot of cool people around.

[Bonk]

Having not known the 'Old Eclipse', as you call it, I can't really tell. All I know is this forum is full of junior members imitating Robin and generally insulting people without prior knowledge of what they're talking about and trying to assert dominance and superiority in a forum that really doesn't warrant it. I, personally, think EO was a step in the right direction as a whole, but there's a few issues:

* It's too difficult to modify the engine
* There's no features

I like the idea of EO being written to avoid bugs and increase flexibility, but the lack of features is just being re-labelled as 'Well not everyone is going to use these features'. Perhaps we should add scripting back in to a custom version for those that seriously want it, bring back the scripting boards, and have a set of de-facto scripts for Guilds, Speech Bubbles, Mounts, etcetera, that everyone wants?

And how many times have I tried sitting down at VBtutor and followed tutorials? And I still just can't get it. It doesn't click for me. A scripting engine might ease that a little and grow a little more creativity in this ever-decaying forum. The past few years and the gradually defunct software should serve as a warning to what can happen if it isn't done properly, but not a reason to boycott the same pillars TE/EE/ES stood on.

Everyone nowadays thinks they'll have the next best MMO by using Enterbrain's graphics in the default EO, so what we really need is a list of the most popular Eclipse Games and a directory of approved games labelled by style/genre with a description of their good and bad features. It could foster a more friendly Eclipse.

[Justn]

I don't think adding a script system is a good idea its really limited… Plus EclipseOrigins is alot better than Total Eclipse, Evolution and Stable put together, even though it seems to have made this "community" (if you can even call it that anymore) a bunch of aholes =) I still <3 you guys though...

EO may be a better overall engine but unless you know how to program in VB you better be prepared to shell out some money to someone to help you with some needed features.. The old eclipse engines had tons of features (even though some didn't even work) but whats the point if you can't even enjoy it cause of how slow and generic it looks

[lel]

OMG! I love Robin! and everything he has done is perfect. You guys are all just too lazy to learn VB6\. Everyone agrees the versions of Eclipse before this were just broke and just didn't work. Asking to bring back some broke features that never worked in the past, is just wrong. EO doesn't accept suggestions.

[Justn]

lel can you get your nose any farther up there? Also do you know how to program?? I think not since your posting in every custom versions thread on here saying how your going to use them all =p

I don't think anyone wants to bring back the old systems cause they do suck he was just pointing out how much friendlier the community and user friendly stuff was back then..

[Bonk]

In a way, Justn, yes, but I would like scripting. Scripting isn't a broken feature. It was just done haphazardly before and know everyone avoids it like the plague. We're not saying that 'ZOMG BRINGBACK STABEL :@!!111!!!!1!', just that scripting sounds a helluva lot easier to me. Also, we're not suggesting it, merely evaluating the state of Eclipse. The software has improved, the community has degraded.

Just look at most of the Legend and Veteran groups, mostly they're not working on anything Eclipse-wise because they're bored of it. They know whatever they make will be pulled apart by newbs trying to get a leg-up on a supposedly important Eclipse social ladder they've metaphorically invented for themselves. Those who come out with good projects or versions of Eclipse are likely to have so many heads thrust up their rear end that it could be fatal to remove them. Eclipse needs to stop being so judgemental, arrogant and defensive.

EO is a great piece of software to make professional games. You can create a fully fledged MMO with it, just look at Crystalshire. Then look at the exstensive amount of work needed to seperate that from the rest of the Enterbrain-doused projects gathering dust in the EP section and contemplate how much you'd need to pay a programmer to do something like that for you.

[Justn]

:cheesy: I agree with almost everything you said Bonk. <3

[lel]

@Justn:

> lel can you get your nose any farther up there?

I don't know.

[Richy420Rich]

Though Ambardia was popular, it had it's share of bugs in the source, however EE did teach me how to use VB6 via it's sadscript, one could say that sadscript is the more easier way to learning VB6, but all sadscript did was send external data to VB6 and then VB6 recalls the internal subs and functions that were built in the clscommands module of VB6\. Over time, this became a problem for Ambardia, being a massive game with over 400kb of script. Near the end, I tried to send a lot of the script inside VB6 but yes the majority of the bugs that EE had, Ambardia still had, such as movement issues, and the networking issues.

Me and Ambard pretty much knew we pushed EE to it's limit, and we had found out the hard way that we built a tower on top of a shaky foundation, but Ambardia was a great learning experience for us both, and we're going to take that experience with us on our next journeys..

As for EO, not to kiss ass or anything, it's a nice base for me personally, it allows me with my prior experience in coding to add the features that I want, and I try to be bug free as possible, but without testers, obviously some bugs are going to slide by my view of sight but at least when the time comes when they're found, most of the time, I'd know exactly where I'll have to go to fix them, unlike that of EE which I did not know where I was going in other peoples coding.

But I do understand that VB6 may be hard to buy or grab, but the same would go for EE, TE and Stable if you're looking to build something that isn't going to crash endlessly in a year. All 3 of the versions have internal bugs which requires VB6 anyways to fix.

[Admiral Refuge]

Vbscript and VB really aren't all that different, especially since you have access to the same sadscript functions in the Eclipse source (GetPlayerHP, etc).

What I would actually use when I was screwing around with Origins, I'm not sure if it's there anymore, but there were some nice source edits that allowed a sort of "scripted tile," "scripted item," "scripted NPC" etc.
[Here is one such example](http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/smf/index.php/topic,63458.0.html) – my old Rock, Paper, Scissors game was almost entirely scripted, but porting it over to Origins was pretty simple; even the GUI.

@lel:

> OMG! I love Robin! and everything he has done is perfect.

That's what is called "brown nosing."

Warning - while you were typing 5 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

[Richy420Rich]

Yeah those systems are still available in the source section, which is crucial for my project because I really do feel a need to have those systems, but as well, it's not for everyone which is why Robin did not plan to put such systems in EO. [Here's another example;](http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/smf/index.php/topic,68426.0.html) As well, there have been a rise of Custom Versions which includes a nice amount of features such as quest, pets, and other things. I pulled mine though because there were bugs reported in it and at the same time, I'm working on COA so I didn't want to duck with 2 engines with the same things in them.. Still planning on releasing the COA engine but I seriously want a good head start in my own project before I do lol.

[RyokuHasu]

What I don't like is when people cry and b**** about the lack of features in EO then they list off all the things that they can find in the tutorial section. I don't care if you don't know how to use VB6, that's why its called a source tutorial. You copy and paste and you are done! I have yet to see someone that likes EE/ES cry about something that isn't already in the tutorial section. Are you going to cry about the lack of features or are you going to look and see if it's already been made for you?

It's not hard to take just the parts you need and add them in when you have then right in front of you!

[Richy420Rich]

Lol we cried and bished about the bugs in TE, EE and Stable, now we cry and bish about the lack of features in EO. Lol sounds like an endless cycle of crying and bishing.

[lollicat]

Nova, I've been wanting to post this for months. You had the courage to do so. Since you said it as it is, I will too. It's going to be blunt and I'll probably get warned/muted/banned, but I don't care.

Robin turned into a tyrant. He created everything about the modern Eclipse, using the 'History' to glorify himself and making EO look like god himself coded it. Meanwhile, as many hours as I've spent, I just can't get the hang of VB6\. Some people are creatively oriented, some people are mathematically oriented. I am the former. While art and storyboard come to me like a fish swimming downriver, coding in even just VB6 is damn fucking hard. I can't make Alley Cats work simply because if I want it to be popular, I have to be a great programmer. And trust me, I've tried. I've spent entire weekends reading tutorials and making my brother help me. Remember my 'release' of sex.exe and sexengine.exe? Those were my attempts at learning VB6 inside and out. And it still didn't work.

Robin turned EO into what he calls a 'base', but as said before, it simply lacks features. I don't want to spend hours copy/pasting lines of code, I want to spend my hours pixelling sprites and mapping gorgeous scenes. Scripting took such little time, and you could add it in at any time, but with EO, you have to go in there, then delete all your maps, etc.

Finally, the community has changed. Anyone who has been here <1 year thinks that Robin is fucking god and would lick his dirty gym socks for him to so much as glance at them. Seriously? All these fucking newfags act like EO is just _dandy_ so that people will think they're professional when Robin is just an asshole who's so high up on his horse that it's riding into his filthy ass. Flaming? Yes, I am. I don't like Robin. He needs to calm the fuck down and realize that good programming doesn't make him that great. I also hate every stupid noob like 'lel' here. His quote is exactly what everyone thinks, and I'm fucking sick of it. I'm not going to ragequit Eclipse because I still have hope that maybe one day, someone who agrees with me is going to stand up with me and get rid of what we have. We don't have a community. No one is helpful. Fuck, even _I_ act too stiff around everyone. I don't type with emotion, I just say it coldly, because that's how everyone is. Sure, some people are still friendly, but how many? _Maybe_ 3 out of the 25 active members. The only people I genuinely like in here are Bonk and Ryoku Hasu. Everyone else tries to be an asshole, because if Robin does it, everyone else must.

I don't even like CS:DE. Everyone fucking pirates their copies of VB6 (and yes, I did too) just so they can pry around there and make their little clones of Crystalshire. Sure, it's a well put-together game, but now that Robin 'retired', he just uses his authority in Eclipse to advertise his own goddamn game.

Yes, that was a rant. Yes, you probably tl;dr'ed. Yes, I will most likely be muted for this. But before I am, I surely hope Robin read this. Because I've wanted to tell you "Fuck you" for the past 5 months. Thanks for ruining my community.

edit; holy shit that was way longer than I intended

[Richy420Rich]

Oh shit I done stepped in a battlezone… Duck this I'm outtie 5000\. LOL.

[Justn]

lol all of u guys are crazy.. this thread is getting out of hand… eo is cool and it works.. as long as their are still cool ass people releasing their work for free or for me to buy i will stay here cause its fun... everyone including robin needs to stop being so sensitive and help make this community a better place again  to learn new things and make good games... even if they are just hobby games like mine...

[renzo]

@Pinkamina:

> Nova, I've been wanting to post this for months. You had the courage to do so. Since you said it as it is, I will too. It's going to be blunt and I'll probably get warned/muted/banned, but I don't care.

lol, your not going to get muted/banned for posting an opinion, we're not fascists… well I hope most of us aren't anyway.

Personally I don't think the community changed all that much after EO was launched.  It was already going down hill at the time.  But when you contribute something people use for weeks to months at a time, developer worship tends to happen, the same happened for Marsh when he first created eclipse.  A better example would be Notch, his community literally calls him the God of Minecraft.  Not much you can do about it.

EO is a more stable program than EE/ES, this can't be disputed.  Although I think it would have been a better idea to keep both and labelled both programs appropriately:
EE/ES is for casual developers who just want the simple features provided and to add little things as they want.
EO for the serious developers who want complete control of the program with a reliable base.

Regardless, this thread is more of a old man's rant to bring back the golden ages of eclipse when all anyone cared about was talking shit with his internet homies.

Yeah, I miss old eclipse too, but not for the same reasons.

[RyokuHasu]

@renzo:

> Yeah, I miss old eclipse too, but not for the same reasons.

You just want honey in all our asses. >.>

lol

[Gwen]

@Pinkamina:

> Sure, some people are still friendly, but how many? _Maybe_ 3 out of the 25 active members. The only people I genuinely like in here are Bonk and Ryoku Hasu. Everyone else tries to be an asshole, because if Robin does it, everyone else must.

Loli you hurt my feelings…. even after i accepted sharing eclipse with another girl, and didnt try to drive you away! :(

Anyways, Eclipse is pretty much dead now, and I'm not talking about the program. All you see are people flooding the shoutbox with questions on support, or advertizing their incomplete game or featrue. Then you have the following flood of read the pink box, or asking for support will get you muted.

Now granted I didnt do much with the actual program, and mostly lurked in the shadows to derail an Off Topic thread, but those days have long been gone. Now my beloved off topic area is a wasteland, with very few posts, and the ones threads that do pop up are typically boring. Eclipse used to be fun, and full or randomness... People would stop thier games for a bit and just relax and have fun. We used to feel kind of like a giant disfunctional family.... but now that family is dead.

I'd spend more time on eclipse then i did working, but lately work has been more exciting than here.

As for the actual program, I agree with Renzi... 

I feel like the real old members pining for the green boards.
And you guys need to stop worshiping Robin, and start worshiping me again!

[Admiral Refuge]

@⠛ʍEи:

> I feel like the real old members pining for the green boards.

Long live the green forums!

[Robin]

My answer to pretty much everything on here; If you wanted to preserve your way of doing things so much then you should have stepped forward to actually do the work.

The old engines were broken. I tried to fix them. It turned out to be easier to just make new ones rather than deal with the cluster-fuck of half-arsed systems and broken optimisations. If you remember I was originally brought on to develop EE 2.8 with Joe. We both ended up dropping the project because it was such a mess. EE was broken. There is no way you can argue that. Ask anyone on here who has learn from EO's code and they'll all say the exact same thing.

When I first released Origins it was meant as a personal engine for my own game which other people could jump on and screw around with. As the years went on I worked hard on building the engine, writing up documentation and generally helping people transition. _Several years._ I then went out of my way to develop a brand new website and forum.

No offence, but what were you doing when all of this happened? You can call me a tyrant if you want, but as I see it the only reason everything gets done my way is because no one else is willing to actually do it. Naturally if I'm the only person who's going to do any work then I'm going to do it how I want.

The reason the community is now feeling dead is because Eclipse is just getting old. Every single community which passes over the 5 year point has these exact same issues. The veterans still hang around making it so new members can't step up to take over their positions. We need moderators and developers but it's insanely difficult to hand the job over to someone less experienced, especially when I've worked so hard to create such a solid base.

You can't just sit on the side line three years later and say, "Actually, I preferred it how it was." If you liked it how it was then you should have stepped up to handle the maintenance and support required to keep anything alive. As it was I'm the only person who decided to step up and do anything.

[Richy420Rich]

@Robin:

> The old engines were broken. I tried to fix them. It turned out to be easier to just make new ones rather than deal with the cluster-fuck of half-arsed systems and broken optimisations. If you remember I was originally brought on to develop EE 2.8 with Joe. We both ended up dropping the project because it was such a mess. EE was broken. There is no way you can argue that. Ask anyone on here who has learn from EO's code and they'll all say the exact same thing.

This is true.. I've been here during EE's reign, and being that Ambardia was made in EE, I definitely know first hand that EE was just to much of a wreck to fix. Hell, Joe and Robin even tried to help us at Ambardia to fix the bugs we had while they were trying to work on 2.8.. So I definitely ain't gonna bite the hand that helped Ambardia, but of course - Ambardia at the end was just helpless, we pretty much put it out of commission because all the shit we was adding into it, while it still basically the same EE.

Now EO is released, though it may not have features, at least it looks cleaner, feels like it's going to run smoother and yet, allows developers to shape it the way we all want uniquely - Instead of seeing the same old shit..

As for the community, I doubt the program has anything to do with the turn of the community, there are those who chill here and communicate, relax and whatnot, there are those who come here, grab EO and leave, and there are those who are trying to get the know how of EO. Not even going to state the other categories cause I'm sure there's a few more lol.

To me, I guess the community is just maybe bored, busy with life, doing their own projects or whatever.