The evolution and state of Eclipse.

[Robin]

It's been open-source for months now. Go download the History Bundle.

[Richy420Rich]

It requires too much knowledge, scriptz it in for me. :(

[Robin]

@Richy:

> It requires too much knowledge, scriptz it in for me. :(

Hahaha. <3

[Bonk]

I wasn't insulting you, Robin, I was pointing out that you removed something we liked. If I was insulting you, it would sound much more, for want of a better word, insulting. I cannot understand VB6 at all, scripting would have been an ease-in.

There's no point saying you get tired of it all, because this must be the first time I've ever seen anyone question your work. All I've ever seen on your half is pessimism and it's dragging Eclipse down. In fact, the only person I've ever seen whine is you, posting long, rather selfish rants about how everyone steals your work, you've been here almost a decade and everyone has to earn your respect when alot of the time they don't even want it. Constructive criticism on other's work is perfectly acceptable, treating people who are starting out is not. So the pressure of answering questions well and truly gets to you, huh? But you apparently have thick skin. Right.

I'm in no way dismissing the work you've done, but it's time you either stopped insulting or stopped posting, Robin.

[Richy420Rich]

I challenge someone to show me a great feature they've built in sadscript, without the use of a single line of coding in VB6.

[Admiral Refuge]

@Richy:

> I challenge someone to show me a great feature they've built in sadscript, without the use of a single line of coding in VB6.

I would point to my leveling spells system or my turn-based battle system, but…

The leveling spells system needed a source edit because of a bug in EE's GetPlayerMP(), et al. since they were not giving back the correct results.
The turn-based battle system needed a source edit to fix a bug in the custom menus, iirc.

[Robin]

@Bonk:

> I wasn't insulting you, Robin, I was pointing out that you removed something we liked. If I was insulting you, it would sound much more, for want of a better word, insulting. I cannot understand VB6 at all, scripting would have been an ease-in.

I didn't remove anything. The community stopped using it. In the end the only talk of EE was of the new members who got confused as to what the official release was. The downloads are still there and the forum sections are still intact, albeit hidden. It's not my job to sit there fixing people's problems in outdated projects. It's not my job to calmly explain to new members that, for some stupid reason, we're hosting engines which we know are broken yet will do nothing to fix. It's not my job to deal with the dozens of unanswered script requests we'd get daily because no one was using the system any more.

I don't care how much you loved the old engines, you don't know enough to develop an educated opinion on the matter.

@Bonk:

> There's no point saying you get tired of it all, because this must be the first time I've ever seen anyone question your work.

Then you've obviously been here for the grand total of 4 weeks. You really think my work would become the de facto version if it wasn't picked apart from its initial release?

@Bonk:

> All I've ever seen on your half is pessimism and it's dragging Eclipse down. In fact, the only person I've ever seen whine is you, posting long, rather selfish rants about how everyone steals your work, you've been here almost a decade and everyone has to earn your respect when alot of the time they don't even want it. Constructive criticism on other's work is perfectly acceptable, treating people who are starting out is not. So the pressure of answering questions well and truly gets to you, huh? But you apparently have thick skin. Right.

Again, basing your opinion over your last month of activity is just ignorant. You have no idea what I'm like as a person or how I was on this forum back when I was still an active administrator and developer.

How about you stop assuming you know anything about me? If I was the kind of person you're making me out to be then I wouldn't have any friends and I'd never have become an administrator in the first place.

You're in no position to take the moral high ground and tell me how I can and cannot act.

@Bonk:

> I'm in no way dismissing the work you've done, but it's time you either stopped insulting or stopped posting, Robin.

My attitude is none of your business. Get your head out of your arse and stop assuming that your opinion is something I'd value enough to actually change myself for. My way of dealing things has worked out just fine so far.

If you want another developer in charge who's got a more optimistic outlook on life then feel free to take on that job. Don't sit there on the fence dictating what people should and should not do when you haven't lifted a single finger to do any of the work required to keep this place afloat.

@Admiral:

> I would point to my leveling spells system or my turn-based battle system, but…
>
> The leveling spells system needed a source edit because of a bug in EE's GetPlayerMP(), et al. since they were not giving back the correct results.
> The turn-based battle system needed a source edit to fix a bug in the custom menus, iirc.

Spot on. Ironically the EE and ES actually had compulsory source editing to fix the problems which were present. Origins requires none. It's completely optional. :]

[Richy420Rich]

I figured about the same, because all of the features I liked, needed fixes in the source for, so for anyone who does take on EE, ES, gonna need VB for eventually anyways, so I don't know why people tripping on it.

[Robin]

@Richy:

> I figured about the same, because all of the features I liked, needed fixes in the source for, so for anyone who does take on EE, ES, gonna need VB for eventually anyways, so I don't know why people tripping on it.

Nostalgia and poor memory through old age, I'd say. Oh, and of course people's hatred of me. :P

[Richy420Rich]

I just say it was fun while it lasted, but now it's time to move on, a product forum without updates is a product forum that becomes dead with time, and as you said, nobody was stepping up to the plate to fix the product, which later came EO and EO was the sparked highlight of the day, it'll die down when Eclipse C comes, then the members will be tripping on them haha. The spiral of bishing shall continue.

[Robin]

Aye. If Stephan actually lets his aspergers calm down enough to actually finish this thing without re-designing the operating system I'll probably start messing around in the language myself.

[Bonk]

How about you stop assuming things about me, Robin?

You're quick to label others ignorant, but clearly don't understand that there's a high chance that the date I registered and the date I actually started using Eclipse are two completely different matters.

As for whether I can occupy the moral highground, then yes. I've never once insulted anyone, nor have I ever tried to make anyone feel crap. I speak my mind and stick to my opinions, but the fact that you've been involved with the Mirage line of engines for a while doesn't constitute divine intervention and make you have the right to treat other people like crap, all the time expecting them to kiss your arse for it and then complaining when they do.

You write ten-tonne of text on the homepage about how you foresaw the fall of every community, but it's right in front of your eyes that Eclipse is heading the same way and you're so blinkered by your percieved superiority that you'd rather Eclipse fell to ruins and the entire community went to rats, because as long as everything's okay in Robin World the rest of us can go to hell. I refuse to accept that.

And a month in my opinion is more than enough time to formulate an opinion on you, Robin. Live by your 'What I don't like is people who don't try to learn.' motto, but don't insult those who don't understand Eclipse right off the bat. If you thought about what all the newbs you made leave this forum could have achieved, and now it's up to the very few among us who are still making games to try and make up for the lack of new people doing anything productive and that's all down to you.

[Robin]

@Bonk:

> -snip-

**tl;dr:** I deal with things differently from you so you should stop and do the same as me.

Stop trying to project your own morals and personality on to me. Sitting here complaining about me all day is going to do jack shit for the community. If you want things to change then go do things which will actually bring about the change.

I am who I am and no amount of bitching on your part is going to change that. We get it. You don't like me. Repeating yourself over and over again isn't going to change this fact.

Spend some of that pent up anger on doing something the community will actually benefit from or learning the skills to achieve that.

[Anna Comnena]

I was thinking of doing a retrospective of games from the Eclipse Evolution era, but the main point would be that they all had modified sources to some degree or another, anyway.

I understand the relative inaccessibility of EO compared to EE, but you can't argue that EO was a step in the wrong direction. As much as I love Pickle and unnown, they were not good at finding and fixing bugs, and EE as it progressed through every generation was nothing more than added half-broken features being piled on more half-broken features. EO changed this cycle by going back to a stable, clean release. In the big picture sense, this is much better path to progress upon, but it does sacrifice features for the end-user.

Unfortunetly, interest from the community itself was not able to take this baton and add to it. EO has such potential for modular add-ons which overrall would be extremely helpful for a growing indie game development community; but nobody has really stepped up to do this, either.

I think one of the fundamental issues is how defunct VB6 is; there really isn't much incentive for new people with potential skills and ideas to craft these new things anymore.

[Bonk]

I'm with you Anna, I appreciate what Robin did, and I appreciate EO and how ES/EE/TE are defunct, what I find issue with is Robin's attitude that we all have to impress him to earn his respect. You're worse than my dad, Robin.

I suppose I'll have to wait until Eclipse C comes out. Maybe that will be the touchpaper for an Eclipse we can use effectively.

[Anna Comnena]

Bonk, you don't have to impress him. Why should you automatically have his respect? The community at large is essentially demanding that Robin does more work so they benefit. I wouldn't have any respect for such a community, either.

Getting a gold star just for showing up, is not something they need to teach in schools these days. -_-

[mrmiguu]

@Anna:

> Getting a gold star just for showing up, is not something they need to teach in schools these days. -_-

But I like my gold stars…


I think SadScript would have worked out better had you not have to manually add in declarations for both the client and server to create new functions for the thing.

ITT: EO takes away from convenient accessibility but gives to overall stability.

[Yxxe]

@Bonk:

> I suppose I'll have to wait until Eclipse C comes out. Maybe that will be the touchpaper for an Eclipse we can use effectively.

Or how about you quit complaining and go and learn? I didn't get to programming things I really wanted into [OTLR](http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/smf/index.php/topic,55661.msg803296.html#msg803296) until I actually learned how to use VB. (I'm sure Robin will provide a few embarrassing posts I made when I was a newbie here.) Making a game takes dedication and a lot of time. After jumping from version to version (TE, EE 2.6, 2.7, ES and then EO), EO is by far the easiest engine to work with. Even if you can't code very well, there are some sweet tutorials in the 'Source Tutorials' section to get you started. That's how I pretty much began with VB6\. I take a look at a few tutorials and see how bits of code actually worked, then I started working on bits of my own.

Sure, I can look back at the first pieces of code I wrote three years ago and have a heart attack looking at them, but that's how you learn. You write something, implement it and make sure it works. When you're done with that, you can come back in the future and improve on it. My Item upgrades system has gone through three versions and quest system has gone through at least four, just to name a few.

So in summary, have the drive to make something brilliant and have the dedication to make it a reality.

[Bonk]

You didn't read what I posted earlier - It doesn't click for me. I've followed tutorials and read through VBTutor until I'm blue in the face but it just doesn't go in.

And I'm not saying that Robin should come and hug everyone, I've just never seen him post _anything_ positive.

[Robin]

@Bonk:

> I'm with you Anna, I appreciate what Robin did, and I appreciate EO and how ES/EE/TE are defunct, what I find issue with is Robin's attitude that we all have to impress him to earn his respect. You're worse than my dad, Robin.
>
> I suppose I'll have to wait until Eclipse C comes out. Maybe that will be the touchpaper for an Eclipse we can use effectively.

First of all I suggest you actually read someone's post before you agree with them.

Secondly, stop projecting your Daddy issues on to me. I'm not your father and I'm not here to give you loving encouragement and all that other sappy shit. That's just not the kind of guy I am. Besides, who the hell cares what I say? Are you people really so desperate for approval that you'll actually become upset because some emotionally distant, drunken Brit on the internet doesn't like your work? You seriously need a better father figure in your life if I'm your idea of a supportive adult.

I don't owe any of you anything, least of all my respect and approval. If you actually do something good then I'll let you know, I just won't go plastering it all over the public forum. If I've seen someone improve over time or if they help me out with something then I'll get in touch in private and personally congratulate or thank them. Posting "lul nice job" on their thread means bugger all. Having a serious conversation about how I've seen them improve and having them thank me for helping them is something which will never be matched by some little kid jumping around trying to get chummy with everyone by saying their stuff looks awesome.

I've had dozens of people who've come back months or even years after they've had a run in with me only to thank me for setting them straight. My policy of helping people help themselves is the exact same as the old saying of teaching man to catch a fish. If you want to be the one handing out free food on the side of the river then go for it, but don't talk down to me as I teach them to do it themselves.

As Anna said, you don't get a gold star for showing up. This actually makes them worth something.

[dugor]

Who cares if you can use the old version to make a game? The new version works better and you'll spend less time working out shitty bugs and more time actually working on your game.

[Bonk]

I didn't say you have to love us all Robin, but it wouldn't hurt you or take any precious time to change 'Turn the bloody server on, then. Go read the tutorials instead of assuming you know how this works' to 'Go to your server folder and start the server.exe. The tutorials cover it all, you should read them'. This is worsened when you don't realise how bad you can make people feel, Robin. Even more so for people like me.

It's not warranted to be so awful. Especially when you have a small army of lemmings saying 'No.' in threads where it doesn't make any sense at all, 'You're an idiot.' when they clearly don't know what they're saying that to.

The root of Eclipse's attitude problems is monkey-see-monkey-do. If you where more positive, the people trying to snub others to climp up in people's expectations might be too. Unless you can find some other method to make Eclipse a more positive place?

[Robin]

@Bonk:

> I didn't say you have to love us all Robin, but it wouldn't hurt you or take any precious time to change 'Turn the bloody server on, then. Go read the tutorials instead of assuming you know how this works' to 'Go to your server folder and start the server.exe. The tutorials cover it all, you should read them'. This is worsened when you don't realise how bad you can make people feel, Robin. Even more so for people like me.

I couldn't care less. If your first response to coming across a problem is to post a thread rather than reading the tutorials and FAQ then you deserve to feel bad.

@Bonk:

> It's not warranted to be so awful. Especially when you have a small army of lemmings saying 'No.' in threads where it doesn't make any sense at all, 'You're an idiot.' when they clearly don't know what they're saying that to.

Report their posts, then. Some people are idiots.

@Bonk:

> The root of Eclipse's attitude problems is monkey-see-monkey-do. If you where more positive, the people trying to snub others to climp up in people's expectations might be too. Unless you can find some other method to make Eclipse a more positive place?

I'm not going to pretend I'm someone I'm not on the internet just because some idiotic kids decide I'm a suitable role model for them to emulate. Anyone in their right mind would instantly realise that I'm not the kind of guy you look up to.

If you honestly think the attitude of 35,000 community members is decided by how I act at 4am before I've had my morning coffee then you've got a very warped perspective of how this place works. You're making some pretty wild accusations here, son.

[DJMaxus]

I remember TE, EE, and ES. Back then I didn't know anything about scripting, let alone coding, but I wanted to make a good game. I was an example of a typical visitor coming to Eclipse today. Sure people use Eclipse for a hobby, but that has never been how Eclipse was advertised. Eclipse usually attracts people who want to make a great game worth playing. When I first started using TE, then eventually EE, I loved the fact that I could just search for, copy, and paste scripts someone else made into a txt file, to add features to my game. The only problem was how limited it all felt. Speaking for myself here, with scripts, I could never achieve what I wanted for my game. Not to mention all of the bugs, memory issues, and how slow those versions were. I knew the source would ultimately have to be modified if I wanted to make something good. If not just to fix the bugs, but to make features unique to my game.

I think EO was a step in the right direction. Though it's not as user friendly as EE or ES was, I believe it points those interested in ORPG development in the right direction, despite them wanting to take that path or not. I understand that its more difficult for some than others, but I believe anyone that wants to learn to code, can and will eventually learn. I didn't do much scripting, but I think the results from modifying the source exceed that of scripting in Eclipse. Copying and pasting tutorials and scripts will common practice in every game developing community til the end of time, but actually learning from what you're copying is one of the best ways to start towards learning a language, and making your own features will shortly follow. If there's something you don't understand, you can always ask, but, it's a shame that what has been said about the community is unfortunately true.

[mrmiguu]

All I want is EO to be re-released with the old grey UI…

@Robin:

> If your first response to coming across a problem is to post a thread rather than reading the tutorials and FAQ then **you deserve to feel bad**.

So, so funny. So, so true.