The evolution and state of Eclipse.

[Robin]

@Alexander:

> All I want is EO to be re-released with the old grey UI…
> So, so funny. So, so true.

Then go replace the GUI with the grey one. You're old enough to do it yourself now.

[Kemerd]

I think you're right DrNova. Not with my whole heart. But, yes, making a good game is harder than it was back then. That's the only real problem.

[DrNova]

You misunderstand me then Robin, because I'm not trying to demonize you, although you do have a tendancy to have an attitude when answering questions, and your semi-self rightious defence in this thread kinda rubs me the wrong way.  You really do give the impression of being high on yourself, regardless of whether or not thats the case, and it just rubs alot of people the wrong way. Just saying. If I was a nub, I'd prefer not to have your kind of sarcastic, annoyed responsees when I was asking for help.

Not to mention the community used to be alot more forgiving even about stupid questions, now god forbid you try to ask someone else for help. It didnt use to be that bad.

Also, something was brought up about a good system done entirely in sadscript, I had an entire resource collection, base building, attacking and defence system scripted with heavy custom menu usage, and it worked Great.

But my main point, still valid, is the move to solid coding has not had a posative effect around here. Sure everyone eventually accepted it, but you KNOW eclipse, soon as EO was released, with its pretty yet sparse default features, a number of the usual kissasses jumped on your back, and it snowballed from there.

Most people who said "Stop using EE use EO", and started influencing the newer people, were the same people that couldnt and didnt do anything with the sadscript anyways, they just saw something that was more shiny.

Scripting should never have been abandoned, thats just how I feel.

I see zero overall quality increase from EO becoming the "official" version.

PLUS it has dampened the amount of people who stick around. Without the sadscript stepstone, its to big a jump straight into coding for an amatuer to make most times.  Thats just the truth.

[Ruins of Hell]


[DrNova]

Dont see the relevance, nor does it contribute to the discussion. If you would like to get involved, talk, dont slap someone elses cartooon/picture up as a "reply". Always irritates me when people do that then think they are being clever and involved.

[azure]

I had a long winded reply, but I don't want to fill an entire page with a wall of text no one will read.

The community has decayed this far for two reasons. Robin is the only one who actually understands the inner workings of his engine fully, and the community in bulk doesn't want or care to learn anything other than the basics. I think the best evidence of this is how every feature list consists of scraps from the tutorial section, or some supposedly new idea that's been in every game of the rpg genre in history.

Now I won't bring my thoughts on anyone here into the discussion, for the sake of being as unbiased as possible, but I think everyone is to blame. There is no middle ground. Robin sees himself as the only one actually doing anything of merit right now, and the majority simply don't do much of anything, while demanding more of Robin.

If the C engine is ever released I would be rather interested to see what people make of it, but I'm not sure if it will be any better than vb if the community isn't willing to learn and the developer isn't willing to teach.

Addendum:
I probably should mention this as part of my argument, before I'm lashed out at. I am one of those people who "just has ideas" I could share them for ever and a day, but to some ideas are useless and if I can't do art, program, or compose music/sfx I am useless.

[RyokuHasu]

@Azure:

> The community has decayed this far for two reasons. Robin is the only one who actually understands the inner workings of his engine fully, and the community in bulk doesn't want or care to learn anything other than the basics. I think the best evidence of this is how every feature list consists of scraps from the tutorial section, or some supposedly new idea that's been in every game of the rpg genre in history.

I'm just going to focus on this one, everyone else can pick at the rest.

It is true that Robin knows the most about EO, but there are some others that come pretty close and know a lot about it. In fact there are a few features in EO that are 1/2 done and just sitting in there, and  only the people who know the system the best find them and do something about them. It also takes some one who knows the system even better to make those tuts and complex systems to begin with.

and yes many MANY of the features list are from the tut section and "custom" features that you see in any other big name games. But you have to give credit to the "custom" feature designers for making new things with EO and proving that It can be used to make something great.

[Robin]

@DrNova:

> You misunderstand me then Robin, because I'm not trying to demonize you, although you do have a tendancy to have an attitude when answering questions, and your semi-self rightious defence in this thread kinda rubs me the wrong way.  You really do give the impression of being high on yourself, regardless of whether or not thats the case, and it just rubs alot of people the wrong way. Just saying. If I was a nub, I'd prefer not to have your kind of sarcastic, annoyed responsees when I was asking for help.

Then don't ask stupid things which have been answered in the FAQ and tutorials. I honestly don't understand what people don't get about this. If someone has a genuine issue with developing something or wants some help discussing the inner workings of a system then I'll gladly help them.

If someone is just going to spam the shoutbox with "help server says its down" (ignoring the bright pink box) then when they fail to get an answer there spam up the Q&A section without reading the stickies then of course I'm going to knock them down a peg or two. Far too many people think they're above the rules. Being new doesn't justify this.

@DrNova:

> Not to mention the community used to be alot more forgiving even about stupid questions, now god forbid you try to ask someone else for help. It didnt use to be that bad.

No, but we also used to have people who were actually active and helped out with the support section. If I'm the only one who actually bothered to research the issue posted then I'll bloody well point it out. People can be as stupid as they want, but if they're going to use this place as the first port of call for any small issue they get then they're using the internet wrong. Google is your best friend. Use it.

@DrNova:

> Also, something was brought up about a good system done entirely in sadscript, I had an entire resource collection, base building, attacking and defence system scripted with heavy custom menu usage, and it worked Great.

Bullshit. The only systems in place with scripting would limit you to server-side changes. Creating anything in VBScript is 10x harder than doing it in the source. Especially that horrendous form design system. If you can make a system like that in VBScript working through so many hardcoded limits then you could do it in VB6 just fine. As has been pointed out before, your idea of which is harder comes down to your stubbornness of learning new things.

@DrNova:

> But my main point, still valid, is the move to solid coding has not had a posative effect around here. Sure everyone eventually accepted it, but you KNOW eclipse, soon as EO was released, with its pretty yet sparse default features, a number of the usual kissasses jumped on your back, and it snowballed from there.

Oh fuck right off. Now I know your memory _is_ being warped in your old age. EE's features were _broken._ Half of them didn't work and the other half broke anything else they had the misfortune to run in to. I do love how you made a big show of bringing up Ambardia as the pinnacle of EE development but when the creator actually comes along and backs up my points you just instantly drop it. Stop grasping at straws. The people who didn't like EO are a minority who feel an intense dislike to anything new. You didn't bother to move with the times and now you feel left behind in the past. This was your own doing, not mine.

@DrNova:

> Most people who said "Stop using EE use EO", and started influencing the newer people, were the same people that couldnt and didnt do anything with the sadscript anyways, they just saw something that was more shiny.
>
> Scripting should never have been abandoned, thats just how I feel.

You're the one who abandoned it. The scripting boards were closed because of lack of activity. Questions went unanswered, feature requests were never fulfilled and no one ever bothered to write up the documentation which would be needed by a new generation of designers.

All the people who knew what they were doing either moved forward to EO or rage quit like yourself. You're the one who abandoned scripting. You're the one who abandoned Eclipse. You can't come back here three years after you made this decision and expect a broken, unsupported and outdated engine to still be at the top, especially when the people who used it all pissed off.

@DrNova:

> I see zero overall quality increase from EO becoming the "official" version.
>
> PLUS it has dampened the amount of people who stick around. Without the sadscript stepstone, its to big a jump straight into coding for an amatuer to make most times.  Thats just the truth.

Then you're blind. Seriously blind. I'm shocked at how far you're letting your nostalgia screw with your perceptions of reality, here.

You talk about how no projects are being made yet the Projects board has less than a month of activity on the front page.

You talk about how no features are available yet we've got hundreds of tutorials which explain how to do things you'd never _dream_ of doing in EE.

You talk about how the community has died but in actual fact it's just your idea of what the community was which has died. How you expect it to be still in place three years after you abandon the place is honestly beyond me.

Now as for your claim about quality, here's a selection of screenshots from the project section.

**Eclipse is still alive and well, you're just too stuck in your own circle-jerk nostalgia session to notice it.**











[lel]

There is all the proof you should need.
Pictures! I mean how can you argue with those?

[Robin]

@lel:

> There is all the proof you should need.
> Pictures! I mean how can you argue with those?

Your input in this thread is unimportant. You've been here the grand total of two months. You know nothing about the issues which are being discussed.

You're just playing the old game of 'follow Robin around the forum and try and argue with him' which, believe me, many people have tried. It can only end badly for you. I suggest you sort out your attitude and get the hell over whatever happened.

[mrmiguu]

I like how you sneaked in one last screen of Crystalshire there. ;)

It may be true that fewer games exist today than there were in the past, but the games today bring forth much higher quality gameplay and showmanship.

[Bonk]

What I'm saying, Robin, is that I don't understand VB6 and it's hard for me to take it in, trust me, I've tried.

Scripting seems like watered down programming to me. What we're saying is that people who aren't too bothered and are making casual games in the weekend just 'cause they're bored are having to learn VB6 back-to-front to make anything people will play.

Partly this is the nature of EO, it's just a base for an ORPG. Partly it's down to peer pressure, no-one on Eclipse will point out the good parts of a project when there's bad bits. If we all took your advice and used EO on it's own, because anything we make will deface your precious source code, no-one would have a game that's playable. Then everyone would moan and whine about the lack of decent games. And you know full well where all this negativity comes from, but our Lord High Robin has every right to treat people like crap because he once made an Engine.

And when people try and thank you by aiding you in arguments?

@Robin:

> Your input in this thread is unimportant. You've been here the grand total of two months. You know nothing about the issues which are being discussed.
>
> You're just playing the old game of 'follow Robin around the forum and try and argue with him' which, believe me, many people have tried. It can only end badly for you. I suggest you sort out your attitude and get the hell over whatever happened.

I don't think kissing anyone's arse is a good idea, but you don't have to be such an idiot about it, Robin.

[Richy420Rich]

@Alexander:

> I like how you sneaked in one last screen of Crystalshire there. ;)
>
> It may be true that fewer games exist today than there were in the past, but the games today bring forth much higher quality gameplay and showmanship.

@DrNova:

> I see zero overall quality increase from EO becoming the "official" version.
>
> PLUS it has dampened the amount of people who stick around. Without the sadscript stepstone, its to big a jump straight into coding for an amatuer to make most times.  Thats just the truth.

There are fewer games because members got smart and they're not going to release a 2 map 2 item program and call it an active game. Those in WIP will remain WIP for awhile, because they want to give more than that which older games gave.. The engine isn't the reason why there are less developments, if there's someone who doesn't know the engine, they can easily join up with another project with someone who does know the engine, but if they are too proud then they choose to challenge the task themselves.

As far as bringing Ambardia in this discussion, and everything I've said about it has been the truth.

> Ambardia.com - Note: It is still buggy and you can expect some ocasional errors and server crashes. It is back up so that people new to the world of Ambardia can get a feel for the game. The new engine will have all the same graphics and maps and of course a million new features.

This was when Ambard launched the server a few months ago, but decided to shut the server down so he can concentrate more on the new project.

[ZoSo]

This forum is full with idiots and jerks, most of the people here don't know anything yet they argue and act like they do.

There arent any games because most of you are ducking retards who just complain.
Nothing creative is done here, or appreciated. You just talk about shit and argue.

[Robin]

@Bonk:

> Scripting seems like watered down programming to me. What we're saying is that people who aren't too bothered and are making casual games in the weekend just 'cause they're bored are having to learn VB6 back-to-front to make anything people will play.

You obviously know nothing about scripting _or_ programming. Stop giving such a baseless opinion.

@Bonk:

> Partly this is the nature of EO, it's just a base for an ORPG. Partly it's down to peer pressure, no-one on Eclipse will point out the good parts of a project when there's bad bits. If we all took your advice and used EO on it's own, because anything we make will deface your precious source code, no-one would have a game that's playable. Then everyone would moan and whine about the lack of decent games. And you know full well where all this negativity comes from, but our Lord High Robin has every right to treat people like crap because he once made an Engine.

Yes. That's right. The attitude of this entire forum is controlled by me and me alone. What the hell is wrong with you? Just because you look up to me as a father figure doesn't mean everyone does. Just because you're lacking emotional development doesn't mean everyone else is. Just because you need constant attention and recognition doesn't mean everyone else does. Stop projecting your own pathetic situation on to the rest of the forum.

If people are emulating my attitude then the problem is obviously with them, not me. The question you should be asking yourself is why the only person who bothered to step up and actually do any work over the last 3 years is someone who actually has standards and an opinionated personality. You're so quick to judge me as the 'High Overlord Devil' that you fail to understand the motivations behind my way of dealing with things.

You've arbitrarily pigeon holed my methods and characteristics in to the 'bad guy' slot without actually bothering to think about how it _really_ affects people. Your opinions and theories are based your own experiences and your own experiences alone.

@Bonk:

> What I'm saying, Robin, is that I don't understand VB6 and it's hard for me to take it in, trust me, I've tried.

That's your problem, not mine. If you're asking me to stop the evolution of my engine just to cater to a small band of people who don't have the ability to evolve with it then the answer should be obvious, son.

Evolution is what keeps this world moving. It what separates the useless from the useful. It's natural selection at its purest. This isn't the class room. I'm not going to dedicate my time to the idiots in the class just because they can't keep up. This is unfair to those who actually show the skill and drive to do something exceptional.

I'll syphon off the idiots and dedicate my time to mentoring the people who show true talent and motivation. Asking me to do anything else is just selfishness on your part. The fact that you believe you have some sort of divine right to get the same amount of attention as the people who show themselves to be better shows just how warped modern day teaching and parenting works.

I'm not your father, son. I'm not here to say everything you do is amazing and give you a gold star even though you can't grasp the basics of game design. My gold stars are rare and are given to those who actually earn them.

[ZoSo]

I remember this same thing happend to Elysium, and Mirage.
Allthrough in this case the community is much larger, so its even more annoying.

Eclipse is getting to the same stage like both of those two communities, it should close down because none of you are game developers, or creative. And when i say you, i mean 99% of this community.

[Bonk]

I never said you're like a father, or that you act like one to the community. TBH you act like that one permanently drunk Uncle that no-one invites to family gatherings because he rambles on about people and frequently breaks the furniture.

What I said was, you're worse than my father. I meant that in the sense that my father is a prick, and you're an even bigger prick.

So what do you suggest we do then? If we're going to have a community overrun with tension, surely it's up to the self-proclaimed authority figure to sort it out? Or is is just that that only applies when you feel like needlessly insulting someone?

[Robin]

You're the one who called me the overlord, son. I'm just a retired developer who kicks around to help the odd person out.

If some people have such a weak personal identity that they take on my personality then they're obviously not going to last around here very long. Or have a very happy life, for that matter.

Stop trying to change me to meet your own warped ideals. Life isn't full of happy go lucky people who are nice to everyone they come across. Get off the internet and go get a job. You'll meet plenty of real life people who don't meet your stupid expectations.

[Bonk]

You can't tell me you'd talk to people the way you do in Eclipse whilst you're not on the internet. If you did you'd be friendless, jobless and probably homeless too.

If you're the 'authority figure' round here, maybe try and clean up the bad attitude. You know full well where it comes from.

Think of the other legends and moderators. Gwen's nice to everyone, albeit she hates eggnog. Marsh is a good guy, Renzo's a daily source of lols, Anna doesn't go around being arsey with people, Rose doesn't call everyone an idiot everytime she can. **So why is it so beyond you to be positive to people?**

Aside from your obvious ego problems, you seem to think no-one appreciates you and everyone hates what you did. You'd be appreciated a helluva lot more if you weren't such a needless twit.

[Robin]

Stop comparing me to other people. They're not me and I'm not them.

Again, my personality is my own and no amount of arguing on your part is going to change that.

How you've turned a discussion in to the state of the game engine in to a 3-day crying marathon about how much you dislike me is really beyond me.

[Bonk]

It's like talking to a brick wall. It's obviously not who you really are. It couldn't be, anyway **as I have already said**. Try finding somewhere constructive to vent your frustration and don't take it out on me.

[/Stupid argument]

[Yxxe]

@Bonk:

> [/Stupid argument]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

[mrmiguu]

@Lightning:

> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

Ironically, they're both English (like Robin and Bonk).

[iSnow]

Give Robin a break. Geez. I don't mean to kiss ass but honestly Robin tried to fix what you had but it became a better choice for him to go and take the route Origins did. If you liked it that much you should've fixed it yourself. I may have only registered in may but by that time the scripting board was still around and I saw it die down to basically nothing, that says something, you guys ditched it yourselves. If you like the way ES and EE operated then really you guys should've taken the time to keep it alive and well rather than ditch it when Origins came around like most did. He's really not the tyrant you make him out to be, he compliments when he sees something worth deeming as good and when he gives criticism it's usually true. I've learned a couple things from Robin's supposedly negative comments. He points out what's bad, but also points out what is truly good.

But Robin, no offence, but you can be a prick at times. You are overly negative at times, but honestly a lot of people are making you out to be the wrong kind of guy.

The current state of Eclipse seems to be pushing out more better looking games here and there, rather than being full of hobbyists using the old engines, and believe me I've tried them. While yes VB6 coding is a bit tougher to get on over scripting, Origins still works.

Basically I think a lot of you are getting mad because Eclipse is less of the hobbyist community and more of a community constantly trying over and over to make a better game.

Eclipse still works, here are some screenshots of the things this Eclipse community has created;


All that and more done by the Eclipse community today. In my opinion, were working fine, it's just you guys are complaining over something you didn't fix.

[lel]

Oh calm down Robin. If I wanted to start an argument, I'd say something along the lines of "You're mean," "Bring back Scripting," or "EE/ES was better!" I mean just look, everyone thinks I'm just kissing your rear here at the moment =)