Thought's on a VB6 rewrite?

[Pikachu]

I fully understand that it's just an idea, and that you aren't committing to anything. I fully agree that a rewrite would be a great thing. However, it needs to be planned and done well. Using a tool that is on the edge of death is foolish, because, it's at the edge of death. It may technically still work, but if someone is going to start on a project as massive as a MMO engine, it will need to be done with something more modern and more functionality to ensure we won't be doing rewrites every few years.

I really would like to emphasize on the planning needed. You're using blanket terms right now: "Map Processing", "Rendering", "Movement", "The Tile Engine". Have you performed benchmarks and identified exactly what the bottlenecks are, and even if it would be possible to resolve them without going through a rewrite? You'll need to focus on optimizing what the engine should do. Not features, but things like resource management and security. You'll need to be far more specific with what you want to accomplish before the coding can even begin.

Expand on those points you currently have, with as much detail as possible. Avoid blanket and marketing terms ("Faster, much faster"). And most importantly, aim to build an engine with maintainability in mind and how to future-proof it, to prevent major rewrites in the future.

[Rob Janes]

Oh jesus we're no where near that stage [Raichu!](http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/community/index.php?/user/45328-raichu/) That would come in time, this was merely meant to be a brainstorming topic and nothing more.

[jcsnider]

Kinda think it is funny how a ton of people read the acronym SQL and instantly run away in fear as if it will haunt them in their sleep XD. It really is not that hard, just a pain if you are limited to 1 thread…

[Mal]

> Kinda think it is funny how a ton of people read the acronym SQL and instantly run away in fear as if it will haunt them in their sleep XD. It really is not that hard, just a pain if you are limited to 1 thread…

All the more reason to move away from VB6\. There's been more quality of life improvements that you could possibly name in one post, much less 200 pages of a word doc that have been made that users of VB6 are missing out on.

And yeah, I completely agree with your sentiment. Honestly, SQL is trivial with ADO/ODBC:

sqlObject.SQL = "Select * From users Where name = " & userName

sqlObject.Refresh

It's that darn easy.

[dimx]

That would be the best idea really but if you are going to do that you should look into a different language in my oppinion. Yes VB6 is still alive and kicking but its been over used no need to re invent the wheel. I think a web based engine would be great. Java, HTML5, Javascript. There are plenty of tutorials available online. I am new to this as well so I wouldn't beable to help much but if there are a couple people out there that are good they should come together and make a simple engine with basic functions and it will evolve over time just like everything else. Imagine being able to play and build your game from your cell phone that would be awsome.

We can even pull together as a community and hire a proffessional programer to provide us with a basic engine that we all can use to learn and improve ourselves.

Don't be scared of change I don't think SQl is hard with proper instructions people will learn it and it will prepare most of people here for school and jobs in the future.

[Pikachu]

> Oh jesus we're no where near that stage [Raichu!](http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/community/index.php?/user/45328-raichu/) That would come in time, this was merely meant to be a brainstorming topic and nothing more.

We aren't? What exactly are we brainstorming, then? You've already jumped past that stage in this thread; you need to go back to it. The fact that we are discussing SQL in this thread before we have even defined what problem it will solve is an indication of that. What we need to do is brainstorm and identify specific sections of code that are slow, or that we want to change. Only after that can we start brainstorming solutions. Just because a relational database is used in a majority of web applications does not mean it is appropriate here.

In my experience (this is from Total Eclipse mind you, so unless something major was done to slow things down, it should be applicable) data access has never been a bottleneck or slow enough to create unnecessary load times.

This thread should be about defining specific problems, slow downs, and optimizations. Once done, we can really see if a rewrite is needed.

[Rob Janes]

> We aren't? What exactly are we brainstorming, then? You've already jumped past that stage in this thread; you need to go back to it. The fact that we are discussing SQL in this thread before we have even defined what problem it will solve is an indication of that. What we need to do is brainstorm and identify specific sections of code that are slow, or that we want to change. Only after that can we start brainstorming solutions. Just because a relational database is used in a majority of web applications does not mean it is appropriate here.
>
> In my experience (this is from Total Eclipse mind you, so unless something major was done to slow things down, it should be applicable) data access has never been a bottleneck or slow enough to create unnecessary load times.
>
> This thread should be about defining specific problems, slow downs, and optimizations. Once done, we can really see if a rewrite is needed.

No, we aren't. Or I'm not rather. I haven't been a part of that conversation and it's rather gone off on a bunny trail in my opinion 

I'm there with you; not debating your statements by any stretch. We need to identify where improvements can be made before jumping the gun and saying we're going to do "such and such". You're preaching to the choir friend, but that wasn't my intention for this post. It was to gauage the communities opinion on if it should be done, not 'what' should be done. My original post wasn't meant to be anything more than 'examples'.

If this is something the community really wants, I'd create a seperate section for it where we would clearly identify and address issues in a clear and concise structure.

I appreciate what you're trying to get across, but it sounds condescending and I believe you're digging too deep into the meaning of a post, when it's merely looking for a reaction from the community on whether or not it would be worth pursuing.

[Pikachu]

I apologize if I sound condescending; I really don't intend to do that. I think it's safe to say that the majority of the community would appreciate an updated engine. The many custom versions, and previous failed attempts at porting to another language, support that. If there were a stable engine that people wouldn't feel the need to optimize constantly, there would end up being more games than custom versions and not the other way around.

Good luck! I will gladly lend my experiences and support if it's needed.

[Rob Janes]

Don't sweat it heh, I know your heart is in the right place and you sound like an extremely knowledgeable individual with experience so if this IS something that the community would like, if you're willing I'll certainly call upon your experience!

*Corrected grammer. Apparently, when I drink, I confuse you're and your.

[DMF]

TASKS

-Brain Storm improvements to the "VB6" Engine and server-

-break down how to go about this-

-Rewrite following the improvements with destroying the engines "STYLE"-

-improve the engine further-

-decide on the next language-

-port over to the new language and correct the changes needed to keep original functionality-

-brainstorm newer improvement and possible newer features-

-break down how to go about this-

-Add the new content and changes with destroying the engines "STYLE"-

and keep doing this sooner or later it will be complete.

now throw in a bone. ADD A BACKUP FEATURE…. like when u start an editor it saves the stuff to back up so stuff crupted. 

cant wait see who will win.

[TorenRenne]

@ DMF… Whaaaaaaaat!?


[mrmiguu]

> Tile based movement has been dead for how long outside of RTS's? C'mon, guys. Break away from these long-dead or dying practices!

Maybe that makes Eclipse original? Why try to be like other engines in terms of features?

[Zzbrandon]

I would like the seamless map though it would make eclipse stand out. If it is possible even in vb6?

[Synergy]

If you must stick with VB6, then this is a good idea. It'll bring a fresh, improved look to Eclipse.

If it's still undecided, then I think you could focus on rewriting the engine in a more modern language. I'm no expert, so I wouldn't know which language, but anything that is newer is a step forward.

[Helladen]

> Same here. That sql thingy in VBGore was only annoying…

I missed this when I posted last time, but SQL is a must have knowledge when making a game. I mean come on, I figured all that out when I jumped into VBGore and Netgore. If you are dedicated enough you want to learn that without having everything handed to you. The people that don't please get out of game development.

Linking your game server up to a website is the proper way to make an online game (not saying the database needs to link to a website right away just having the core setup to do so). I know not everyone wants to do that, but still having a database when you're ready is always a good thing to do. You need to learn it someday, might as well get it out of the way as soon as possible.

It literally takes 2-3 minutes to set MySQL up. It isn't a big deal for beginners to pickup.

[iSnow]

As Budweiser said. If we're going to do something like that, make it worth the while. I think that if you go as far as rewriting the engine you'd have to seriously come up with a better networking than it has now (Can't imagine you couldn't) and be able to make the editors and their functionality better. As long as this gets the systems in place to be around the same as EO2.0 Feature wise, we're all good.

[Mal]

Get it bug free, put a price tag on it, give me 2% of the royalties for the idea, and call it day. S'what I'd do.

[Exception]

> As Budweiser said. If we're going to do something like that, make it worth the while. I think that if you go as far as rewriting the engine you'd have to seriously come up with a better networking than it has now (Can't imagine you couldn't) and be able to make the editors and their functionality better.

The byte array system itself already works as best as it can (well, minus the Nagle algorithm still being enabled.), and as a packet system it already has great functionaliy and uses. It's just -soooo damn stupidly used-, eg, Sending longs when bytes can be sent, constantly sending certain packets when they have no need to be sent so frequently, sending stupidly huge packets, etc etc.

At the end of the day, Eclipse users should stop faulting the functionality, as really, it works fine for the most part (and we -will- fix the genuinely badly programmed systems), and there aren't as many problems as users like to exaggerate, often understanding next to little about what the hell is actually wrong. It's true, look at CSDE, we all know it's inherently bad to use, but how many here can actually describe in detail about what's wrong, and understand what the hell they're on about?

From thinking about it, there are not many instances in Eclipse where it _is valid to blame bad programming or dated technology. The -only- bad systems within Eclipse recently that I can think of would be the event system, and… ...that's about it. Everything else works fine.

Anyway, I'm done now. I just don't like seeing somewhat baseless comments on systems that are already functional._