My mega huge rant on "Custom Versions"

[Spainion]

> Spanion, there's a limit to the amount of loosely coded and forgotten loops you can leave in however. Sure, there's a LOT more memory and processing power available these days. But this does not mean you can simply neglect any shape of optimization and just write stuff in the most abysmal manners. There should be a balance between the two(have you ever seen the source code of PHP? Dear lord..).
>
> Optimization, whole not as important in today's market should also not be completely neglected. A few additional loops or wrongly defined variables won't kill your program, but you also shouldn't take it too far "because our computers are stronger anyway". I remember a fair amount of games here having issues on computers that were relatively modern because of this way of thinking.

I didn't say fill your code up with dogshit. You can always take things one step farther one step faster.

> stable and somewhat optimized

Means coded correctly, not with a bunch of bugs and running loops. I went to college for computer programming, although I didn't learn as much as I should have I had several PHP projects. Balance is what I was talking about, it needs to be coded correctly but you don't need to reinvent the wheel to get a small performance boost.

[Joyce]

I know, but since the both of you seemed to preach extremes to one another I figured I'd mention a balance between the two.

Should probably have worded it slightly different however.

[lel]

> >! I… but... I thought the entire point of an ORPG engine was to allow people who can't program to make an online game? D:
> >! Honestly, I think a good chunk of the problem is people rushing to tutorials/custom/programming before trying to make a game with the base engine. If you haven't put fourth SOME effort into learning how to utilize the base features and 'forging' somewhat unique features by using what you got, your game may ultimately suffer even if you're a programming wizard. You would be surprised with what you can do when trying to rig something together without the assistance of programming.
> >! Don't get me wrong though, beyond those basics It's best to get on top of learning SOMETHING to contribute with, since the base engine can be pretty limited. I just don't think it's right to knock the idea of a good base engine game, just no one puts in the effort and when most people do they get tempted/distracted by all of these shiny tutorials or jump into a game making vocation, pretty much putting actual development experience with the core part of the engine on the back burner.
> >! This is an opinion coming from an extremely unmotivated individual with nothing to show for his time in game development, so take this as you will lol. 
> >! About the original topic, seems like a decently feature packed version. Don't lose heart, I'm sure there are plenty of lurkers who are grateful for your contribution (those hobbyists out there making games purely for fun).

and

> >! Can't say that I've ever seen it that way, It's definitely useful for that sort of pursuit and many others (art, writing, etc) but first and foremost It's definitely always appeared to be a tool for anyone to pick up and develop with.
> >! I agree that a game made with just the base or even a custom version will probably board the generic wagon, but that's the fault of the person who developed it. I would bet money (if I had any) that if someone made a game with the base engine and took care to develop lots of content and use their wits to maximize the potential of all available features and at the very LEAST find/rip their own graphical resources, it would have at least a handful of players online concurrently. Which would be more of a feat than half of these feature-rich looking games that never leave WIP limbo. This is all without any particular fancy skill, anyone could do it.
> >! But like I said, I'm not putting down programming. Programming is **essential** but It's not the only recipe for success. If someone did at least this much, people would frequently show up offering their services because they enjoy what you did, how you did it and want to see it go further, essentially closing the gap for people who can't do anything but develop within the engine.
> >! All you need is dedication, that's all I'm saying. That and I think It's a better idea to familiarize yourself with developing within the engine before exploring/applying programming, if you can make a kinda entertaining game with nothing but what's there and your wits then the sky's the limit when you do start a new project without holding back.
> >! Anyway, I'm not claiming this is the true purpose of Eclipse, this is just how I've always looked at it.

wow…. I'm sitting here with my jaw droped, staring at my laptop screen..... I really wish I could make my point as well as you.

[Scott]

> I noticed some CV's just snatching other CV's and building onto them. That's silly. Even so without proper consent, like how Eclipse Starlight did to my CV.. I wasn't all to happy about it but I let it go, they gave me credit but, it just felt like they tried to '1 up' me with my own work at that time - When I did some coding for mitlark's CV, I asked for permission to add onto his CV, rather than hijacking it.

I see it like this, if you release something open source and stop developing it anyone should be able to pick it up from where you left off and as long as they credit all your work how can you be mad if your not developing it any more it's not like they didn't say all this work was thanks to you here is what I have to contribute credits to me. Now if you where still working on that project and some one did that than I could see how you would be mad and ignore everything above this lol.

[Guest]

> snip

First of all lets just get the fact that I'm not _trolling_ out of the way.

Secondly, lets use EA as an example. Deathbeam single-handedly managed to destroy the community with this engine. He's forced bad coding habits onto people and we're seeing the same games coming out all the time.

Yes, for an engine there needs to be a balance but EA doesn't offer that. An engine is something that is meant to be used as a base, yes? Then why are we seeing games coming out of the Eclipse Projects board with the _same exact things_.

I totally agree - there needs to be a balance. I'm not saying that I should release my base DX8 as it is and slap a fancy name onto it and call it a brand new engine. I agree there needs to be some features to allow the newer members of the community to mess around a bit.

What an engine should do is balance performance and features. Why should we be giving people Blood and a stolen Particles engine if it is not necessary? Taking the genre Eclipse is built upon, RPG, and looking through the list of garbage features EA has, how many are necessary in making the game fit the genre? Isn't the tutorials section supposed to provide people with the stuff they need but maybe can't do by themselves?

If I want to make a game that's pretty basic, no quests, no ranged combat, no chat bubbles, etc and my only decent option is an engine full of garbage that I don't need, is it better to get a bare bones(ish) engine or spend hours removing heaps of useless features I'll never use (which is especially hard if I'm new to programming - I might remove the wrong things).

[Richy420Rich]

> I see it like this, if you release something open source and stop developing it anyone should be able to pick it up from where you left off and as long as they credit all your work how can you be mad if your not developing it any more it's not like they didn't say all this work was thanks to you here is what I have to contribute credits to me. Now if you where still working on that project and some one did that than I could see how you would be mad and ignore everything above this lol.

True, however, my CV was a bugged ass engine and I discontinued it for that reason amongst others, being an only tester. I could not find and fix the bugs in a timely manner, I didn't say I was mad - I just said I wasn't too happy. I would have expected more from the one who was building onto my CV as their CV, but eh. You're right - Had I not dropped the development then it would have given me reason to "Not be happy"; So > 

[Scott]

> True, however, my CV was a bugged ass engine and I discontinued it for that reason amongst others, being an only tester. I could not find and fix the bugs in a timely manner, I didn't say I was mad - I just said I wasn't too happy. I would have expected more from the one who was building onto my CV as their CV, but eh. You're right - Had I not dropped the development then it would have given me reason to "Not be happy"; So > 

I didn't mean mad like that bad wording on my end sorry lol but I also understand where your comming from, just though I would throw my 2 cents in. 

[Spainion]

> First of all lets just get the fact that I'm not _trolling_ out of the way.
>
> Secondly, lets use EA as an example. Deathbeam single-handedly managed to destroy the community with this engine. He's forced bad coding habits onto people and we're seeing the same games coming out all the time.
>
> Yes, for an engine there needs to be a balance but EA doesn't offer that. An engine is something that is meant to be used as a base, yes? Then why are we seeing games coming out of the Eclipse Projects board with the _same exact things_.
>
> I totally agree - there needs to be a balance. I'm not saying that I should release my base DX8 as it is and slap a fancy name onto it and call it a brand new engine. I agree there needs to be some features to allow the newer members of the community to mess around a bit.
>
> What an engine should do is balance performance and features. Why should we be giving people Blood and a stolen Particles engine if it is not necessary? Taking the genre Eclipse is built upon, RPG, and looking through the list of garbage features EA has, how many are necessary in making the game fit the genre? Isn't the tutorials section supposed to provide people with the stuff they need but maybe can't do by themselves?
>
> If I want to make a game that's pretty basic, no quests, no ranged combat, no chat bubbles, etc and my only decent option is an engine full of garbage that I don't need, is it better to get a bare bones(ish) engine or spend hours removing heaps of useless features I'll never use (which is especially hard if I'm new to programming - I might remove the wrong things).

Its okay if there are plenty of crap games on the board, that is to be expected in a public forum like this. Its the same deal as the engines, the ones worth recognition shine. I am developing a game using EA as a base just because I don't feel like spending a load of time adding features. Its much easier to optimize and remove then to start from scratch, I'm not sure what kind of life you lead but I simply don't have 7 hours a day to spend programming, not that I couldn't write it myself but its packaged well enough. He steps outside some boundaries occasionally but it does work well.

If you wanted to be an asset to the community you would collaborate with him to optimize the best current engine. EA.

No one says you have to slap a 'fancy' name onto it, but its a forum and the reality is… a catchy name brings views. So logically a fancy name would be a smart thing to do as long as you don't present the engine as something its not. A master topic with a full description of each engine might be a good idea.

I was around like 4 years ago when DFA ripped vbGore's particle system into a version of Ecplise. Robin released EO publicly but I had seen his code in other projects for years prior, he has probably been stolen from more then anyone else in any orpg community. Spodi released vbGore publicly he doesn't care about his particle system as long as you give him credit. Same goes for anything else he added, its not stolen from people who are asking him to stop. I think adding a tutorial on how to add a particle engine to your game is probably a bad idea. Particles aren't optional anymore almost every single professional 2D game engine has a particle system.

I actually have efficiently utilized most features in EA, plus added some of my own. I don't know what kind of short backward-ass games you plan. But I would say Quests, and Ranged combat are pretty important if you expect to gain any kind of following.

Its much more likely that people **want** to have, quests, ranged combat, chat bubbles, etc.. Otherwise it is VERY easy to remove unwanted features (I'm pretty sure one of the first things I did was remove useless code when I started poking away at eclipse), or find a more barebone version like you said. _Your only option isn't this one engine because we allow people to freely post and develop custom engines._ If the people have to vote EA or EOptimize you are not gonna like the result.

[Exception]

> … Its much easier to optimize and remove then to start from scratch...

Ok, so why did the transition from the bugged Eclipse Stable to the from-scratch Eclipse Origins happen, then, if it's easier to fix buggy things than to start from scratch? Why did the programmers here with actual prowess support Robin with his decision, rather than argue that it'd be quicker and easier to fix up ES?

Because, it's actually the complete opposite, funnily enough.

[Spainion]

> Ok, so why did the transition from the bugged Eclipse Stable to the from-scratch Eclipse Origins happen, then, if it's easier to fix buggy things than to start from scratch? Why did the programmers here with actual prowess support Robin with his decision, rather than argue that it'd be quicker and easier to fix up ES?
>
> Because, it's actually the complete opposite, funnily enough.

It depends on the severity of the damage EA is not a total hell hole. Its quite easy to customize any way you wish.

[Guest]

> snip

I'm sorry, but if you think that it's _that_ easy to "optimise" EA then you really have no idea what you're going on about. At this point I'd compare it to how bad TE was or even EE - spaghetti madness.

Trust me, if Deathbeam becomes head developer I will _definitely_ put out an engine because I actually understand what the balance between features and functionality needs to be.

[Exception]

So many people on this forum. They use the following words as if it means something: optimise, stable, clean, buggy, unstable, othersynonymforcleanhere, etc…

...I don't think it means what they think it means.

[Spainion]

As I said it depends on the situation. Personally I don't think EA is that bad, I've fixed a few bugs and get decent performance on all my machines. Comparing EE to EA is pretty extreme.

Way to take my sentence out of context boys. I suppose I could've said FOR ME to make it a bit more clear for you guys,

"Its much easier to optimize and remove then to start from scratch, I'm not sure what kind of life you lead but I simply don't have 7 hours a day to spend programming,"

If you have the time to add the features he has from a base or scrap engine and still have time to develop a half decent game then I encourage you to do so. This engine is suppose to be feature rich and relatively easy to use, If you hate EA so much release a stable optimized engine with the same features. In my opinion most of them have been missing for a long time and are pretty essential. Saying I want to make a game with "No Quest, No Projectiles, No Chat Bubbles…" is just stupid. Those things are easy to remove or simply not use but more people will want them then people who won't.

[Guest]

> Saying I want to make a game with "No Quest, No Projectiles, No Chat Bubbles…" is just stupid. Those things are easy to remove or simply not use but more people will want them then people who won't.
>
> In _your_ opinion.
>
> > release a stable optimized engine with the same features
> >
> > Pick one. The point we're trying to make is that EA is so bad because of the garbage features in it, there's no way you're going to manage to optimise all the garbage it has in it.

[Ertzel]

> I'm sorry, but if you think that it's _that_ easy to "optimise" EA then you really have no idea what you're going on about. At this point I'd compare it to how bad TE was or even EE - spaghetti madness.
>
> Trust me, if Deathbeam becomes head developer I will _definitely_ put out an engine because I actually understand what the balance between features and functionality needs to be.

Okay, I know Sekaru and I have had our difference a couple times when it comes to CV's and this post I had to comment on…

Things like you saying if Death becomes the dev you will put out a new engine thats optimized.. Why the duck should it matter if Death becomes the dev or not. You sit and female dog about how buggy versions of Eclipse that people use are and keep going on and on about how you can make this optimized version (Although after reading your post about how your own game would be, it seems like you mean just a version with barley any features and not actually optimized) but you have yet to actually do such a thing. EA has been out for a long time and you seem to have been bitching about it from the start and still you have yet do actually do anything about it.

If you can provide a good optimized engine for Eclipse, then why don't you ducking do it already and stop talking about it..... You go on and on about how you hate the way Eclipse is right now with the engines people use but still have yet to release this epic engine you claim to have or be able to make.

If your not actually going to do a damn thing about it, then shut up and let people who actually will work on engines and codes for others to use continue doing so.

Who becomes the head DEV should have duck all to do with your decision on releasing ur version or not. If your such a better coder then why don't you submit your optimized engine for the developer contest and take the spot away from Death or whoever where to win instead of waiting for it to happen and then finally doing something.

Again, I agree that some CV's are totally pointless and bad, but generally people relize that on their own and just don't use who CV's. I think either having that section mod-queded so a Admin or Mod has to accept new threads, or using the suggestion of making the good CV's stickied to stand out.

[Guest]

I have so little free time right now for one thing. Secondly I'm working on my own game which I'm hoping to launch in a week and thirdly because who the duck cares about Sekaru and his nice optimised engine that isn't a pre-made game? A year ago I would've jumped right in and made an engine but now I'd rather wait and see who becomes head dev because I think Rob is doing a fantastic job and if it came down to me or him he would win regardless.

I've shown people what I can do and I release my clean and optimised DX8, did anyone care? No. Why? Because it's not a pre-made game that they can just slap a logo onto. If I made an engine I would make _an engine_ which is not what people are looking for at the moment.

[Rob Janes]

Thanks for the vote of confidence Sekaru, I have a community college education in programming from 8 years ago, and I don't work in that profession any longer. So Samu Games and this is merely a fun, enjoyable hobby. Anyone who's up to date on the latest technologies has one up on me and I don't mind admitting that, I don't claim to be the best here by any stretch, I just have training and knowledge on what is effective and what isn't. If there's something I don't know, I learn it. But if you were honestly seeking the Head Developer position, I would gladly step aside to let you take it; but who knows! Deathbeam or someone else could be us all!

[Guest]

I'm not necessarily keen on it. Sure it'd be nice to and I think I could provide a whole lot to the community but lets be honest, between you who has a much better reputation than me and Deathbeam who's engine is essentially a pre-made game I have little to no chance .

[Rob Janes]

Well, let's see how it goes. If the community votes me in; I'm sure I can weasle you in as a partner, between your tweaks and optimizations with DX8; and some additional features that I've whipped up, it'd be a solid base for anyone.

[Guest]

That'd be great .

[or3o]

0o having a lead programer dou sounds good to me 

[lel]

On the topic about whether or not an optimized/enhanced/ fixed or whatever EO, is half@’d or not. I actually like those engines; I never use them, but at least it is useable for more than just a handful of people.

On the topic of buggy engines, I actually use a pretty buggy engine myself. The features that were buggy have just been removed, unused, or used in a way that will not cause problems. So a buggy engine does not bother me as much as other types. Most engine bugs could be fixed by nearly any programmer here if you approach them in the correct manner.

About all this new head developer mum-bo-jumbo, let the best man when, and let it be done until and when he or she does. There is no point in talking about who you think will be the best, why everyone thinks you are the best or worse. Just do your part here, and hope it you or the person you want wins.

**This topic wasn’t meant for discussion on the new head developer.**

[Rob Janes]

Yeah but we turned it into a topic about the new developer because we're sick of the ranting and ravings. Heh. You can't tell a handful of people that there is no point in talking about the new developer position, in the meantime go about creating threads ranting about custom versions…it's just to hypocritical. 

[tslusny]

> I have so little free time right now for one thing. Secondly I'm working on my own game which I'm hoping to launch in a week and thirdly because who the duck cares about Sekaru and his nice optimised engine that isn't a pre-made game? A year ago I would've jumped right in and made an engine but now I'd rather wait and see who becomes head dev because I think Rob is doing a fantastic job and if it came down to me or him he would win regardless.
>
> I've shown people what I can do and I release my clean and optimised DX8, did anyone care? No. Why? Because it's not a pre-made game that they can just slap a logo onto. If I made an engine I would make _an engine_ which is not what people are looking for at the moment.

So now i am trying to understand shit what are you writing. First you are saying that people do not need engine with garbage like quest system, chatbubbles, projectiles to EA, and they you are saying that Rob is doing great job with his engine with QUEST SYSTEM, CHATBUBBLES, PROJECTILES, GUILDS etc? Are you ducking crazy or you are just hating ME and saying totally bullshits?

And i think EA should be optional version to use, i started working on ER and i am getting incredibly good results compared to EA, EO 3.0 and other CV.

[tslusny]

> **This topic wasn’t meant for discussion on the new head developer.**

I totally agree …

–-OOOps double post

So i will post here what i forgot. You "Clean DX8" is just totally nothing fixed, changed or added. It is nothing, just base CS:DE DX8 commented. You do not fixed there major CS:DE ctrl-alt-del automation error and your BASS engine is broken and it cant play music files. You said there you added zooming, but scaling is already implemented into DX8, you just added Zooming constant and that constant is only zooming player sprite.