Would the community support a C implementation?

[Godlord]

@Lightning:

> This.
>
> Also, is anyone actually taking on EO or are we leaving it as it is?

At the moment there is no maintainer or anything. If someone wants to, he should send a PM to one of the moderators or administrators, and they'll probably vent it through to the administration centre.

@Damian666:

> i just hope we wont make EO disappear, because some of us like vb6 just fine as is, but i have to admit, a engine by my fellow dutchie is gonna rock xd
>
> Dami

The administrators and moderators have agreed and promised Robin that the Eclipse Origins engine will remain available.

Regards,
  Stephan.

[damian666]

@Lightning:

> Was that aimed at me by any chance? :P

yes, yes it was xd

and good to know goddie :)

dami

[Carim123]

@Admiral:

> …I would be more comfortable with, as head dev, than you...

Soo…what does Fabio do then? I've never really understood his role.

Anyway, off-topicness aside; I'd love to use and learn a different language.

[Admiral Refuge]

@Hamster:

> Soo…what does Fabio do then? I've never really understood his role.
>
> Anyway, off-topicness aside; I'd love to use and learn a different language.

Fabio sits in a dark corner and faps to JVM.

…once in awhile he releases a version of Solar Eclipse to rickroll people

[Rithy58]

Okay, sound like a great plan now. I'm all for it! I'm willing to learn C(I was planning on doing that anyway).
I'm not sure where to start, though.

But it'd be really great for Eclipse if in the future, we'd have these:
Eclipse Origin Final
Solar Eclipse
Yet-To-Be-Name Eclipse Engine in C

Sincerely,
Rithy

[Robin]

I'll post any fixes to bugs which go unresolved eventually. I'll release those as tutorials. Anything else is just completely unneeded in Origins. Feature additions should stay as tutorials and with the release of Automata it couldn't be easier.

Also, I'll keep an eye on all this so I can steal Stephan's libraries. ;D

[Rithy58]

That'd be great!

Really though, the Eclipse Origin v2 Beta Version is like a finished product to me.
Bug fixes and other features should be tutorials or the Eclipse Origins Automata thingy.

Sincerely,
Rithy

[Tazuko]

@S.J.R.:

> Considering the majority voted yes, and considering there seems to be a majority who wants me to be the programmer or lead developer, I'll accept it. At least, when I am done with these two weeks of my final exams.
> If I am the developer, it will use my self-written libmad library, which offers interfaces for networking, user interfaces, graphics (through OpenGL, Direct3D8, Direct3D9, Direct3D10 and Direct3D11), audio and several other things. When I was developing that library, and I still am, I focused on a few aspects: performance, user-friendliness, memory usage (including data-oriented design), flexibility, feature-richness and cross-platform interfaces.
> The past, the present and the future are C/C++ and a thin flavour of Assembly. The game industry generally doesn't use anything else (but for a few exceptions). I can name so many games that were written in C/C++ and even in Assembly, as opposed to your Java games. Not to mention that those games were more successful.
>
> Also, the only game that was fully programmed in Java, that you mentioned, is _Jagex' Runescape_. Bright future you've got there.
>
> And for servers, generally everything cuts too short. Network programming is, to say the least, complicated. There are only a few libraries and programming languages that deal well with it.
> Staying with Visual Basic limits potential, staying with a Microsoft product in general, does limit potential.
> The hardest part of C is using it properly with the lack of good libraries. The theory behind it is quite easy.
> OOP only has benefits when it is applicable, and it is far more not applicable than applicable. Most programming languages and programmers just enforce OOP to be everywhere, end up with a horrible design using all the kind of patterns a sane programmer never heard of, and then wonder why it is so slow (because cache misses aren't usually known to object-oriented programmers and sometimes hard to detect).
>
> Regards,
>   Stephan.

Like I said, server-sided too.  Pretty sure Aion is pretty god damn ducking up there on the list of success, as is Guild Wars.
Java Server > …

Servers? Huh? Not only is java easier to run on multiple places, but a simple networking setup using MINA for a RSPS by some 16 year old java developer proved strong enough to run 2000 people without lag on a vps. It's wholely based on what you put into it, I know, but still... vb6 engines will never reach that. And for a hobby developer (a 16 year old.) using java that's pretty damn powerful, and hell of enough for hobby 2d mmorpgs...

Oh, and I highly doubt anyone here will make a game more successful than RS. (You're talking single-man dev teams with low resources... so this whole argument is null.) Either way this is about C. I'm not opposed to it, if you want to waste your time doing this, hell or java, it's your time, your wishes, go for it.

[Admiral Refuge]

I can't speak for Aion, but I thought Guild Wars was written in C++.  Can you link me to your sources?

[Tazuko]

@Admiral:

> I can't speak for Aion, but I thought Guild Wars was written in C++.  Can you link me to your sources?

Aion's server is Java. Most of NCSoft's new stuff will be server-side java. And I mean Lineage I believe not GW. Though GW2 might be.

[Rithy58]

I've been learning C all day and it's not that hard to learn at all!
It's either that or it's because I already know Java.

Oh and what IDE and/or Compiler would you suggest?
I'm currently using Dev-C++ 5(beta).

Feel like this is off-topic but I just want to show that I'm really supporting this.

Sincerely,
Rithy

PS: I'm gonna also attach a screenshot of the syntax I learned so far. Well…not the code but what type of syntax I learned. I'm gonna finish learning a few more then put it to work tonight.

[Admiral Refuge]

@Zeta: Fair enough.

@Rithy58: DevC++ is fine for learning C in Windows, since it enforces standards more than MSVC.  Though for compiling releases on Windows, a properly configured MSVC will do a better job at making the binary than MinGW (DevC++'s compiler).  But you wouldn't have to worry about this stuff when learning.
On linux, I just use a text-editing software (like gedit or vi), then compile it in gcc, via console.

P.S.:
Also, if you start to get confused with things (*cough*pointers*cough*) let me know, I'll be glad to answer any questions you have.

[Rithy58]

@Admiral:

> P.S.:
> Also, if you start to get confused with things (*cough*pointers*cough*) let me know, I'll be glad to answer any questions you have.

Pointers? Is that the thing that Java Programmer doesn't have to do but C/C++ need to?
I don't even know what it is but I'll research on it now.

So far, I've been learning the basic of C such as the If Else Statement and Function(Argument) return, etc.
You know, some really basic one.

Sincerely,
Rithy

[Admiral Refuge]

@Rithy58:

> Pointers? Is that the thing that Java Programmer doesn't have to do but C/C++ need to?
> I don't even know what it is but I'll research on it now.
>
> So far, I've been learning the basic of C such as the If Else Statement and Function(Argument) return, etc.
> You know, some really basic one.
>
> Sincerely,
> Rithy

Yeah, you don't deal with pointers in Java, but it's something used a lot in C/C++.  They're very easy (I use them all the time) once they "click" for you  (for lack of a better term).

[mrmiguu]

@Admiral:

> Yeah, you don't deal with pointers in Java, but it's something used a lot in C/C++.  They're very easy (I use them all the time) once they "click" for you  (for lack of a better term).

They're **similar** to the _ByRef_ arguments in VB6, amirite?

[Admiral Refuge]

@MrMiguu:

> They're **similar** to the _ByRef_ arguments in VB6, amirite?

Sort of.  There's two things in C that point to memory addresses of the variables: pointers and references.  The ByRef would be the latter.

[mrmiguu]

@Admiral:

> Sort of.  There's two things in C that point to memory addresses of the variables: pointers and references.  The ByRef would be the latter.

I figured as much. Once the engine is in it's early stages, I am sure they will make more sense to me.

[Godlord]

@Zeta:

> Like I said, server-sided too.  Pretty sure Aion is pretty god damn ducking up there on the list of success, as is Guild Wars.
> Java Server > …

The job applications never stated you have to know Java, therefore it's pretty safe to assume they don't want you to use it, and therefore it's safe to assume they don't use it. Unless you can, of course, _prove_ me they do.

@Zeta:

> Servers? Huh? Not only is java easier to run on multiple places, but a simple networking setup using MINA for a RSPS by some 16 year old java developer proved strong enough to run 2000 people without lag on a vps. It's wholely based on what you put into it, I know, but still… vb6 engines will never reach that. And for a hobby developer (a 16 year old.) using java that's pretty damn powerful, and hell of enough for hobby 2d mmorpgs...

Java is pretty weak then actually. In C epoll, IOCP and kqueue all allow you to get over 100K TCP connections, the only limit is your bandwidth, which is generally managed by your protocol and RTT. With an UDP protocol, you don't even have to use techniques made for scalability, since it is quite easy to implement it yourself, which means that a proper UDP protocol will be more flexible and pretty much allow you to have that many connections as well.

@Zeta:

> Oh, and I highly doubt anyone here will make a game more successful than RS. (You're talking single-man dev teams with low resources… so this whole argument is null.)

My skills are _near industrial_, it's not hard for me to produce a game that is more successful than _Runescape_, it would be hard if you mentioned _Settlers_, _Command & Conquer_, _Battlefield_, _Quake_ or _Warcraft/Starcraft_. MMORPGs are one of the easiest genres to be working on, hence why many people want to do it. RTSes and FPSes at the other hand, aren't.

If anyone has the motivation, dedication and the right skills and perhaps forms up a team this would pretty much allow them to create a good game.

@Zeta:

> Either way this is about C. I'm not opposed to it, if you want to waste your time doing this, hell or java, it's your time, your wishes, go for it.

Then stop saying Java is so much better and get lost. You're the only one who's wasting time here bullshitting.

@Rithy58:

> I've been learning C all day and it's not that hard to learn at all!
> It's either that or it's because I already know Java.

C doesn't enforce OOP, so you actually save yourself some time learning it.

@Rithy58:

> Oh and what IDE and/or Compiler would you suggest?
> I'm currently using Dev-C++ 5(beta).

I personally only use and support Microsoft Visual Studio and the Microsoft Visual C Compiler on Microsoft Windows and gcc in combination with Make everywhere else.

@Rithy58:

> Pointers? Is that the thing that Java Programmer doesn't have to do but C/C++ need to?
> I don't even know what it is but I'll research on it now.

Pointers are simply integers that hold a memory address. They pretty much allow you to traverse memory and operate on it. The second thing they allow you to do is pass structures efficiently (you can usually pass one without using pointers, but you'll be filling up your stack). The third thing, it therefore, allows you to do is use heap memory, instead of stack memory.

Regards,
  Stephan.

[Robin]

@Zeta:

> Oh, and I highly doubt anyone here will make a game more successful than RS. (You're talking single-man dev teams with low resources… so this whole argument is null.)

Yes, because Runescape wasn't made by a single-man development team with low resources… owait.

[Bloodmorphed]

@Zeta:

> -snip-

You trying to argue with Stephan is pretty stupid in itself, especially it seems to me you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Rithy58]

Wow. I now understand why Stephan is the man to do this.
I think Eclipse have a great team of amazing Programmers and we can actually do this!

I actually learned VB6 more from the source than the book. The book provided me with basic syntax and how programming actually work but Eclipse Origin is the one that actually made me able to use VB6.
I think I'll learn more and better from Eclipse in C. And I'll learn how to code thing more efficiently.

I really can't wait to see this project start.

Sincerely,
Rithy

[Tazuko]

Yeah… if you can make a game more successful than RS than why haven't you, oh wait? Java is better than VB6 so why are you trying to argue otherwise? Ask any person. Not only is it better but knowing Java will get you MUCH further than Vb6...

Btw, "Experience with Java EE " for Software Developer Requirements. It's under a couple things. They say they'd like Java and/or C++. So why would they ask for Java if they don't use it?

@Robin. The shitty RSC was. You play RS, you should know RS2 in it's current state is made by many Developers.

Like said this is irrelevant to the topic cause this is about C. I'm just to much of an idiot to deny myself from responding to the things you say.

[Fear]

Java is indeed one of the faster growing languages. It can definitely be called bad or crap or what ever, it is equal to any other language. It's growing so much that in the last 6 years it's had a 30% speed increase due to the updates within the language.

RuneScape may take a team to develop it, but the private servers don't and hell they are doing very well. We may use the models that RuneScape develop but the server side is programmed by us completely.

[In7el3ct]

Oh hey… Eclipse in C/C++... I've been working on my own C++ Eclipse project for a little bit. It's not very far, and I'm still in school so I don't have a whole lot of time to work on it, but I'd be happy to help if the devs need it.

[Admiral Refuge]

~~I went ahead and split this~~ Actually, I decided not to yet.

@Zeta:

> Java is better than VB6 so why are you trying to argue otherwise?

I may have missed the post, but who's saying that VB6 is better than Java?

@Fear:
As for saying it's equal to another language, I disagree for the same reason I say C is not equal to other languages.
Ada, for instance, supports everything that C (and C++, with the Ada95) supports, yet has other features as well (including breaking out of nested loops without gotos).  Though Ada is _very_ strict in their compiler, so you really don't have too much flexibility – though I do like how they have pascal strings already implemented, the language is way too static, but I digress.

At the moment, you can do things in C that you cannot do in Java, and C is faster than Java.  It is true that Java is getting faster in the past six years, so once it's up to the speed of C, Ada, and Fortran77, then you can say it is on equal terms with those compiled languages.