My mega huge rant on "Custom Versions"

[Guest]

> Eclopti weren't made to be amazing, it was made to be functional and stable.
>
> Something that most other custom versions lack.

What the hell are you on about? Eclipse Advanced is amazingly stable and has amazing FPS.

[Exception]

CastleBlanc, Deathbeam; I think you're both mistaken that Eclopti is primarily a bug-fixing project. It's not. The clue's in the full name.

[tslusny]

> CastleBlanc, Deathbeam; I think you're both mistaken that Eclopti is primarily a bug-fixing project. It's not. The clue's in the full name.

I meant there isnt any amazing optimizations for now, i am sorry if i do not said it enought clear

[Exception]

> I meant there isnt any amazing optimizations for now, i am sorry if i do not said it enought clear

Given that it's relatively new, 'the hell were you expecting?

[Socuine]

I disagree.

[tslusny]

> Given that it's relatively new, 'the hell were you expecting?

> Wow this was pretty exciting reading  I think that some CV are really just mix of all tutorials on this page, but some of them had some custom features too, and they was really nice. So i think buggy versions, but with unique features is useable too. I tried many custom versions here , and from some i ripped some custom features or just tried them. I do not tried Rob´s engine yet, becouse it had that TryCreateDirectX problem, but i think he solved it in latest version, so i will try it too  I think that he is coding all features like Quest system or Projectiles from scratch is great, becouse in tutorials on this page of that system can be some hidden bugs or lazy-coding what can cause some problems or slowing down games. And Eclopti is great project too, it will have many nice bugfixes on later version i think, but for now it do not have anything amazing. **I hope Iris will have time to finish it becouse i wanna see what amazing will come from Eclopti** 

[Guest]

More like:

> **I hope Iris will have time to finish it because i want to leech it for my clusterfuck engine.**

[or3o]

You forgot to mention the part where he refuses to credit Iris for anything.

[Exception]

I love you people. <3

[Spainion]

> It's not about that. You're encouraging lazyness. How long did it take you to make this? Not long, it's simply a case of CTRL-C, CTRL-V.

Though this is probably true I've noticed a lot of your posts are negative and downright discouraging. I have written some great things now but I started somewhere around where this guy did. You need to stop being a troll and bitching about everything you don't like, this guy is learning hands and there's nothing wrong with that.

If you don't have some constructive criticism other then "Rawr!! You n00b, you didn't spend enough time on it." then shut the hell up.

[or3o]

> Though this is probably true I've noticed a lot of your posts are negative and downright discouraging. I have written some great things now but I started somewhere around where this guy did. You need to stop being a troll and bitching about everything you don't like, this guy is learning hands and there's nothing wrong with that.
>
> If you don't have some constructive criticism other then "Rawr!! You n00b, you didn't spend enough time on it." then shut the hell up.

I think its good the guy is learning to program, i just think his talent would be better spent trying to make a new tutorial (even if its a simple one) than releasing a custom version. Im not saying he should never release a custom version its just there are soo many of them already out and alot of them have nothing special to offer. (meaning anyone could make the same custom version just by adding a few tuts) It is always good to see someone who can at least follow tuts properly without asking a ton of questions.

[Infuriated]

I… but... I thought the entire point of an ORPG engine was to allow people who can't program to make an online game? D:

Honestly, I think a good chunk of the problem is people rushing to tutorials/custom/programming before trying to make a game with the base engine. If you haven't put fourth SOME effort into learning how to utilize the base features and 'forging' somewhat unique features by using what you got, your game may ultimately suffer even if you're a programming wizard. You would be surprised with what you can do when trying to rig something together without the assistance of programming.

Don't get me wrong though, beyond those basics It's best to get on top of learning SOMETHING to contribute with, since the base engine can be pretty limited. I just don't think it's right to knock the idea of a good base engine game, just no one puts in the effort and when most people do they get tempted/distracted by all of these shiny tutorials or jump into a game making vocation, pretty much putting actual development experience with the core part of the engine on the back burner.

This is an opinion coming from an extremely unmotivated individual with nothing to show for his time in game development, so take this as you will lol. 

About the original topic, seems like a decently feature packed version. Don't lose heart, I'm sure there are plenty of lurkers who are grateful for your contribution (those hobbyists out there making games purely for fun).

[or3o]

I thought the point was to teach people how to program so when they make an actual game it isnt a clone of every other game out, if people only use custom versions then they will all have the exact same features and lets face it most of them use the standard graphics too :/ if you have no idea how to program you can make your game all you want but when someone gets an error and you dont know how to fix it your games done. But alas i also dont have a working game, what i do have is an engine i have been customizing for months that will hopefully be able to end up as a decent game.

[Infuriated]

Can't say that I've ever seen it that way, It's definitely useful for that sort of pursuit and many others (art, writing, etc) but first and foremost It's definitely always appeared to be a tool for anyone to pick up and develop with.

I agree that a game made with just the base or even a custom version will probably board the generic wagon, but that's the fault of the person who developed it. I would bet money (if I had any) that if someone made a game with the base engine and took care to develop lots of content and use their wits to maximize the potential of all available features and at the very LEAST find/rip their own graphical resources, it would have at least a handful of players online concurrently. Which would be more of a feat than half of these feature-rich looking games that never leave WIP limbo. This is all without any particular fancy skill, anyone could do it.

But like I said, I'm not putting down programming. Programming is **essential** but It's not the only recipe for success. If someone did at least this much, people would frequently show up offering their services because they enjoy what you did, how you did it and want to see it go further, essentially closing the gap for people who can't do anything but develop within the engine.

All you need is dedication, that's all I'm saying. That and I think It's a better idea to familiarize yourself with developing within the engine before exploring/applying programming, if you can make a kinda entertaining game with nothing but what's there and your wits then the sky's the limit when you do start a new project without holding back.

Anyway, I'm not claiming this is the true purpose of Eclipse, this is just how I've always looked at it.

[or3o]

I definitly agree, i just havent seen any good games based off any custom versions recently, and hate when people use custom versions as a crutch instead of trying to learn a bit. I only mean it in the way that once a cv gets released it always ends up with tons of people posting asking for more features instead of people trying it out for themselves. like the ranking level thing he added seems cool, i dont know if it is from a tutorial or custom but i think if its not already a tutorial it would make a cool one.

[Guest]

> Though this is probably true I've noticed a lot of your posts are negative and downright discouraging. I have written some great things now but I started somewhere around where this guy did. You need to stop being a troll and bitching about everything you don't like, this guy is learning hands and there's nothing wrong with that.
>
> If you don't have some constructive criticism other then "Rawr!! You n00b, you didn't spend enough time on it." then shut the hell up.

I'm not trying to be discouraging, I find it fantastic that we're seeing another member learning to program. What I don't find so fantastic is the sudden amount of "full game" custom versions around which are genuinely discouraging creativity. Look through the Eclipse Projects board, 9 times out of 10 you will see the same game with the same set of features with the same GUI just with a different title.

[minipimp]

I Do believe that we should have a set amount of "Custom Engines" that are optimized and have a good amount of features, but at the same time I do agree that we should encourage people to read the tutorials and learn hands on how to actually add things in a game. There are many Custom versions popping up out of no where but that doesn't mean we should frown upon them. We should encourage people to use them and go further with that engine, using it as the foundation.. Not the final product.

EM and EA, and ER are great and all, but I honestly think we should be helping people understand that those engines are there to provide a starting place, and we should encourage them to read the tutorials and customize there game accordingly. At the same time, many features added will make the program slow, we need to explain that in the case of them copying and pasting a crap load of tutorials will not be okay, we should show them the proper way to optimize a engine as well as have select features.

Point being custom engines should be encouraged as starting points..Not what people should download to start a game, but rather to start learning how to creating the engine for there game and so on.

[Richy420Rich]

At one time I thought that the CV posts were by 'approval only' on the old SMF forums, during the EE days. I think we should have it just by approval again..

I noticed some CV's just snatching other CV's and building onto them. That's silly. Even so without proper consent, like how Eclipse Starlight did to my CV.. I wasn't all to happy about it but I let it go, they gave me credit but, it just felt like they tried to '1 up' me with my own work at that time - When I did some coding for mitlark's CV, I asked for permission to add onto his CV, rather than hijacking it.

On the flip flop; It's good that people are learning, and releasing their work. However, there are a lot of members that would prefer tutorials over moving onto a different version, like myself. I built much into my project already that would be senseless for me to move over to an engine which may not have what I have already.

So yeah, I feel agreed with the majority of the vote on this thread.

[Mal]

Personally, I feel that Eclipse itself and any custom version or derivative of Eclipse should undergo a screening process in which features and overall functionality are rigorously tested to ensure that there is a standard of quality. This would not only help the community but also the developer. There's honestly nothing more frustrating for a consumer than to have to contend with bugs when something is prematurely released.

[Keebler Elf]

Warning I only read the first post and my reply is based off that.

You made some valid points about custom version and their creators and I am sure that many of the other members responded with similar valid points. However your missing one crucial point. This is the internet. People will do what they want say what they want and in the long run you need to learn to not expect anything from that. When someone takes it upon themselves to make a custom version of eclipse your best bet would be to not give a shit what they say about thier engine or another persons. Getting worked up about it will accomplish nothing. Wait for the finished product and then decide if you want to use it. Never plan to use something before it is finished.

[Ertzel]

> At one time I thought that the CV posts were by 'approval only' on the old SMF forums, during the EE days. I think we should have it just by approval again..

I actually agree with this. I think if the CV section required Mod/Admin approval on new threads it would help cut down on the more useless/pointless CV's that don't actually do anything and we could screen for CV's that actually bring in new features rather then just the same thing every other one does but under a new name.

I don't agree about CV's that build off of other CV's being a bad thing though. Although I may be a little biased there since EM is built off of an old EA but I think if anything every CV is basically built off of an older CV since every new main version of Eclipse was once a CV basically built off of old versions.

[Spainion]

> I'm not trying to be discouraging, I find it fantastic that we're seeing another member learning to program. What I don't find so fantastic is the sudden amount of "full game" custom versions around which are genuinely discouraging creativity. Look through the Eclipse Projects board, 9 times out of 10 you will see the same game with the same set of features with the same GUI just with a different title.

I understand that but at least these guys did it themselves, this board is flooded with crap but you gotta support the rookies sometimes they evolve into a great asset to the community.

The engines that deserve recognition shine like a gem I'm looking forward to seeing a solid stable version out of you. To be honest computers grow more powerful everyday I find optimization less important as long as you aren't adding total slop to your code.

Forget having a set amount of engines, just have a moderator pin the versions that are worthy. Let people release their crap that how you learn, one step at a time. Sorry to the people who's posts I didn't read I don't have time.

[Guest]

> The engines that deserve recognition shine like a gem I'm looking forward to seeing a solid stable version out of you. To be honest computers grow more powerful everyday I find optimization less important as long as you aren't adding total slop to your code.

I've said it before, if a certain developer wins the developer contest I will step in and make a decent engine. I've released my clean and optimised DX8 so you can take a look at that if you think I'm just babbling away. In any case I find optimisation important because let's look at the reason why people play 2D games - their computers aren't powerful enough to handle 3D games. Having a 2D engine that runs worse than a 3D game is pretty bad in my opinion.

[Spainion]

> I've said it before, if a certain developer wins the developer contest I will step in and make a decent engine. I've released my clean and optimised DX8 so you can take a look at that if you think I'm just babbling away. In any case I find optimisation important because let's look at the reason why people play 2D games - their computers aren't powerful enough to handle 3D games. Having a 2D engine that runs worse than a 3D game is pretty bad in my opinion.

You make a valid and important point people searching for 2D games most likely are not on a modern machine, but the last time I had success with a 2D title was 2 or 3 years ago. Even a stock P4 shouldn't have much problems running any of these clients, memory/power is cheap/free now. Pretty soon this language will be so outdated it won't run natively on windows, their is a certain degree of optimization you need to put into every project but time is also a factor. A feature rich engine which is stable and somewhat optimized is better then a plain extremely optimized engine in my opinion (depending on the time you want to invest in your project, optimization is always wonderful). Rookie engines are riddled with bugs and I would agree are totally worthless but sometimes people get interested and it motivates the creator to stitch it together into a more polished product. Even when they finish its still probably worthless but they will be a more knowledgeable and respected member, maybe even pass some of their experience on to the even younger members. As I said if it sucks total sh!t they will get no replies and it will fade into the abyss, you trolling helps neither them nor you.

[Joyce]

Spanion, there's a limit to the amount of loosely coded and forgotten loops you can leave in however. Sure, there's a LOT more memory and processing power available these days. But this does not mean you can simply neglect any shape of optimization and just write stuff in the most abysmal manners. There should be a balance between the two(have you ever seen the source code of PHP? Dear lord..).

Optimization, whole not as important in today's market should also not be completely neglected. A few additional loops or wrongly defined variables won't kill your program, but you also shouldn't take it too far "because our computers are stronger anyway". I remember a fair amount of games here having issues on computers that were relatively modern because of this way of thinking.