Would the community support a C implementation?

[Jeff]

Going by the ideal of using whatever language does the job best, C would be the best for a MMO.  MMOs need speed and hundreds or more connections.  C provides this amply.  If we were talking about a little browser game, or an office program, or something else fairly simple C would not be necessary.

[damian666]

like we will ever have a eclipse game in need of that much connections in use xd

[Jeff]

@Damian666:

> like we will ever have a eclipse game in need of that much connections in use xd

I can dream, can't I?
Besides, Robin is the only great programmer here that has released a game.  Also, Favor The Gods will probably be at least somewhat popular, and it could need those thousands of connections C gives it.

[Tazuko]

@Damian666:

> like we will ever have a eclipse game in need of that much connections in use xd

My point too :/

And I highly doubt any games here will top 5k players, let alone the 205k that shitty runescape somehow pulls…

[ToshiroHayate]

@Damian666:

> like we will ever have a eclipse game in need of that much connections in use xd

You do realize, this engine probably won't be a clone of the original Eclipse right? It'll probably have alot more support than poor old VB6 did. Meaning side-scrolling, possibly Isometric. Remember, this is an ENGINE made in C.

[mrmiguu]

It seems Zeta is an opportunity whore. All he looks at is what companies think of job applicants and their knowledge of programming languages; all they look for are those that know Java and maybe C/C++.

Eclipse isn't here so we, the members, can subscribe to a major coorporation. We come here to create games. And we will do so in any damn language we very well please. The consideration of being a computer programmer off of a game developer is a rare one that only a select few take (members that joined here clearly for that reason).

[Godlord]

@Zeta:

> Yeah… if you can make a game more successful than RS than why haven't you, oh wait?

My design document is yet to be finished, and I will tell you that everything in that design document is a game you have yet to play. But that's something that is no food for this thread, really. If you just want to argue, go ahead, but for me you are just some ignorant kid, seriously. I already told you: _get lost_.

@Zeta:

> Java is better than VB6 so why are you trying to argue otherwise? Ask any person. Not only is it better but knowing Java will get you MUCH further than Vb6…

I'm actually quite amazed you keep talking about _how Java is so much better than Visual Basic 6_, whilst I am saying _C is better than Java_. How about you actually try and attempt to read my posts before you are considered a complete idiot.

@Zeta:

> Btw, "Experience with Java EE " for Software Developer Requirements. It's under a couple things. They say they'd like Java and/or C++. So why would they ask for Java if they don't use it?

So even if it is written in Java, that's a mere three games that use Java, and only one that uses it fully. Now let's compare how many games actually used Assembly, C or C++, fully, and then let's count which games were all a hybrid. It should be quite obvious the gaming industry doesn't rely that much on Java after all, **Q.E.D.**

@Fear:

> Java is indeed one of the faster growing languages.

In the gaming industry it isn't. It has an extremely very small share, for very obvious reasons.

@Fear:

> It can definitely be called bad or crap or what ever, it is equal to any other language.

It is not, the performance of C is generally unreachable for a Java programmer, and it uses its own byte code instead of machine code, therefore **Q.E.D.**.

@Fear:

> It's growing so much that in the last 6 years it's had a 30% speed increase due to the updates within the language.

Neat statistics, Proebsting's law: compiler advances double computing power every 18 years.

@Damian666:

> like we will ever have a eclipse game in need of that much connections in use xd

You are implying here that nobody can ever be successful and we are all hobbyists who only spent one hour free time a day to develop some shit game that will never see the light. Get less narrow-minded, please.

@Zeta:

> My point too :/
>
> And I highly doubt any games here will top 5k players, let alone the 205k that shitty runescape somehow pulls…

Using Runescape as an example, then calling it shitty, just proves you do not belong in this thread. Also, your current view is limited because of how Eclipse is currently written in Visual Basic 6, and simply has no potential. This clearly proves you are narrow-minded, which you did by yourself already by stating "Java is better." in a thread about an engine programmed in C.

@MrMiguu:

> It seems Zeta is an opportunity whore. All he looks at is what companies think of job applicants and their knowledge of programming languages; all they look for are those that know Java and maybe C/C++.
>
> Eclipse isn't here so we, the members, can subscribe to a major coorporation. We come here to create games. And we will do so in any damn language we very well please. The consideration of being a computer programmer off of a game developer is a rare one that only a select few take (members that joined here clearly for that reason).

Anyone with the potential to create a good game would be limited by Visual Basic 6\. With C there is so much more potential, which was exactly my point. But then you have the narrow-minded people who think everyone is creating a fan-based game over here such as Zelda, Pokémon, etc. Some people have ideas, and they want to express those, with the current tools there simply is no potential.

Regards,
  Stephan.

[Tazuko]

You still don't understand what I mean by Runescape. I'm saying it is funny how much crap you talk yet you haven't yet made a game more popular than RS for example. Generally you don't talk until you do… Not, oh I got an awesome game design document.

And you don't have the right to tell me to get lost even if you are one of the best programmers here. I only respond because I'm not going to let you say stuff to me and then go hide... I am an ignorant kid, but you're an arrogant adult than?

Like I keep saying either way java > VB6, but so is C > VB6\. So whether you do Java or C IDC. Just don't get why this community hates Java for some reason... I just really want to know why there is no Java version and why it can only be C...  Anyhow C doesn't automatically make it good. It's who programs it, what contents in it. Not just the language... like someone else in this thread already stated, and they also added that it'd be in good hands under you.

@Miguu.
Yeah. A corporate whore who supports the man just tryin to keep you down! 

I'd prefer this to be split off from here... cause it's only further cluttering this thread.

[Drummerpete]

There is a Java version…

[chuchoide]

There's a Java version in the works by Fabio… if you read the forums I guess you'll find it ;)

[Godlord]

@Zeta:

> You still don't understand what I mean by Runescape. I'm saying it is funny how much crap you talk yet you haven't yet made a game more popular than RS for example. Generally you don't talk until you do… Not, oh I got an awesome game design document.

No, you don't understand all your arguments are of no use. And what I said was that I can create a better game than Runescape, I don't need to do that, my experience already should show that. If you can't make that up, then that is your problem.

I'm not talking crap, you can actually do research yourself on whatever I talk about. Earlier this week I exposed the limits of a library to Minikloon, then he went to the forum for that library and asked if whatever I said about the limits were actually true. The actual lead developer told him I was right. Just to give one example.

@Zeta:

> And you don't have the right to tell me to get lost even if you are one of the best programmers here. I only respond because I'm not going to let you say stuff to me and then go hide… I am an ignorant kid, but you're an arrogant adult than?

I actually have the right, you are simply polluting my thread ever since you said this line: "Java is bettarz." I don't care whether you mark me arrogant or not, but being ignorant is far much more of a punishment when you are considered a homo _sapiens sapiens_. At the other hand, arrogance is only an issue if you are ignorant.

@Zeta:

> Like I keep saying either way java > VB6, but so is C > VB6.

No, you initially stated: "Java is bettarz." in a thread about C. Therefore you pretty much said: "Java > C".

@Zeta:

> So whether you do Java or C IDC. Just don't get why this community hates Java for some reason… I just really want to know why there is no Java version and why it can only be C...

I've made many threads about that. It's simply no programming language for actual game development. If you want to use it, feel free, but I am not supporting it. It's not only Java, though. The only reason why I am arguing against Java here, is because it is the only language being mentioned in this thread.

Oh, and for the record, there used to be Solar Eclipse, which is written in Java. If you like it that much, then look up that one.

@Zeta:

> Anyhow C doesn't automatically make it good. It's who programs it, what contents in it. Not just the language… like someone else in this thread already stated, and they also added that it'd be in good hands under you.

This is exactly why I am a programming, and why I am offering people to use my library alongside with it. Since it not only has so much more potential, it also teaches them how game programming is done.

@Zeta:

> I'd prefer this to be split off from here… cause it's only further cluttering this thread.

Then stop replying, or actually talk about something useful.

Regards,
  Stephan.

[mrmiguu]

@Zeta:

> @Miguu.
> Yeah. A corporate whore who supports the man just tryin to keep you down!

Yeah! Stop it, please…

kthx.

**@Stephan** Which compiler will you use for the Windows release of the engine?

[Godlord]

@MrMiguu:

> **@Stephan** Which compiler will you use for the Windows release of the engine?

Microsoft Visual Studio's C/C++ compiler (most-likely the 2010 version, since that's what I've been using the most frequent).

Regards,
  Stephan.

[chuchoide]

If this was coded in DevC++, it would also open in VC++ then?

[Godlord]

@Chuchoide:

> If this was coded in DevC++, it would also open in VC++ then?

Dev-Cpp is no longer maintained (for quite a few years actually), and MinGW doesn't support some things as well as Microsoft Visual Studio does, and neither is there a 64-bit version of MinGW, as far as I know.

As for your question: it would open the C/C++ files themselves, but not the project files.

Regards,
  Stephan.

[mrmiguu]

VC++ compiles C?

[Godlord]

@MrMiguu:

> VC++ compiles C?

It does if you configure it properly.

Regards,
  Stephan.

[Rithy58]

@S.J.R.:

> It does if you configure it properly.

And what exactly are those setting? Are you going to make tutorials in the future?
I want to start learning how to use the IDE that the project will support. That way, it'll save me time learning how to use the IDE.

Sincerely,
Rithy

[Godlord]

@Rithy58:

> And what exactly are those setting? Are you going to make tutorials in the future?
> I want to start learning how to use the IDE that the project will support. That way, it'll save me time learning how to use the IDE.
>
> Sincerely,
> Rithy

All the files should be extended with the ".c" extension. If the project settings (Advanced > C/C++ > Compile As) are set to compile everything as default or as C code, then it will work as a C compiler.

Regards,
  Stephan.

[chuchoide]

Ah, so it will just work as a non-visual IDE? Like only plain code, not like VB?

[Godlord]

@Chuchoide:

> Ah, so it will just work as a non-visual IDE? Like only plain code, not like VB?

Pretty much. It's you and the code, no RAD.

You can use whatever IDE what you want to use, and it will be able to manage your C/C++-files, but the general approach I am using are Makefiles for UNIX et al. (basically you have a shell where you execute the commands to build and run it and an editor to modify the C/C++-files), and Microsoft Visual Studio for Microsoft Windows (it has a solution with projects, inside those projects are the C/C++-files you can edit).

Regards,
  Stephan.

[chuchoide]

Ah, alright, it is clear now.
Thanks.

[reggin]

> Java is pretty weak then actually. In C epoll, IOCP and kqueue all allow you to get over 100K TCP connections, the only limit is your bandwidth, which is generally managed by your protocol and RTT. With an UDP protocol, you don't even have to use techniques made for scalability, since it is quite easy to implement it yourself, which means that a proper UDP protocol will be more flexible and pretty much allow you to have that many connections as well.

What are you talking about? What do you mean "in C"? It's only a language. Java uses those functions as its underlying implementation. epoll, at least. I don't think IOCP is used because of its polling approach, although NIO.2 will support it. I'm sure kqueue is supported as well but have not looked. Because of how I/O is performed in Java (there is quite a bit of synchronization involved), it is perhaps considerably slower, and JNI calls aren't exactly cheap. However, don't be mistaken, you could scale hundreds of thousands of connections using Java.

> OOP only has benefits when it is applicable, and it is far more not applicable than applicable. Most programming languages and programmers just enforce OOP to be everywhere, end up with a horrible design using all the kind of patterns a sane programmer never heard of, and then wonder why it is so slow (because cache misses aren't usually known to object-oriented programmers and sometimes hard to detect).

Can I just say that C can be object-oriented. Using structs is object-oriented. I hope to god you don't simply use global variables when programming state. OOP is very applicable. Maybe you are talking about polymorphism. I have to agree, many novice programmers simply cannot write effective code because they over-do it with tons of layers of abstraction. Still, polymorphism can make code more robust.

An engine written in Java could indeed be viable. The only problem I can think of is the memory overhead. However, memory these days is relatively cheap.

[Admiral Refuge]

Where the heck are all thees Java shills coming from?

…this is like, the 2nd or 3rd person that registered on eclipse just to defend Java, I wonder where Zeta posted the URL.

[reggin]

You make it sound like I'm the fanboy here. I'm simply clearing up a few misconceptions/misleading statements.