Eclipse Community

[Ezemel]

Before getting me wrong, please read: _**This is not a complain thread, I'm not trying to make this community look bad or any of the staff, I'm just telling what I have in mind and in my heart, trying not to offence people.**_

_**Please read everything before posting !**_

_**Thank you!**_

>! My past here is not really important, though I was here since 2008, seen a lot of stuff, had great and bad times, met various personalities, some annoying and interesting ones.
>!  
>! Anyhow, I bet everybody can notice the emptyness of this forum, and that's why I made this thread, to talk about it, and what could we do.
>!  
>! Some attempts were made by Crest and other nice members, but no luck.

**Why Eclipse went  from 99+ Members online/day to 5+/day ?**

>! The main reason wasn't that marshy dearest sold the forum to Amish, and people got upset, even though that is partially true, it ain't the main reason.
>!  
>! What the Main Problem was: the EO4 Engine and the Staff. [keep in mind: "was"]
>!  
>! How so?
>!  
>! Everyone had great hopes for a nice EO4 engine with all kind of new features, they got disappointed, closed source, buggy and expensive.
>!  
>! That was their first Main Mistake, there are better ways to make money out of an engine.
>! [Like: selling "features" scripts]
>!  
>! Their 2nd and biggest mistake was the Staff.
>!  
>! They were too closed minded, even the smallest mistake or word was severely punished.
>! Deleted Threads and Posts for Unknown reasons.
>! Temporary even Permanent Bans for dumb reasons.
>! "They were never helping people, being nice and greeting people doesn't mean help" -Dr.House [banned member of Eclipse]
>!  
>! Because of that, people who felt that they don't belong anymore to this community, leaved and started their own communities, dragging after them other members from eclipse.
>!  
>! With no real updates and news about EclipseV, people started to slowly avoid this community, knowing that there is nothing new and most likely will never be.
>!  
>! From time to time they drop by to read and stalk some members, 5 minutes, and they fade away for another few weeks, months or years.
>!  
>!  
>! After a few complains, things got better, staff no longer deleted threads and posts for their personal reasons, no more unfair bans.
>!  
>! But now is too late.
>!  
>! The forum is deserted.

**What they can do?**

>! They should find a way to please everyone, not only the VIPs.
>!  
>! In a Pay2Win mmorpg, non cash shop players quit first, that's 50~80% of the playerbase, the rest of them are cash shoppers, they compete with eachother until a certain point, everyone is strong enough, economy is a mess, chat is filled with stupid childish messages, and eventually they quit too.
>!  
>! **Translated will be like this**:  If you release an Engine that only those who pay or buy it benefits, and the rest of people who cannot afford or who refuse to pay are left out, they will quit first.
>! After a while, when VIP members made their games and post them, criticism and other complains appear, most of them get upset and quit, lose motivation to make games, or they continue making games for themselves until they get bored and quit.
>!  
>! The community gets smaller and smaller, everyday threads you used to see are not that common anymore, until a point when everything stops.

**My suggestion for Eclipse V**

>! Either Closed or Open Source but with a Scripting feature, wich will allow people to make their own unique game, whatever style and type, sidescroller, turn based, arpg, etc.
>!  
>! **Making $ by having a Script Shop**
>! Selling Custom Made Graphics
>! Of course there will be scripts made by members for free, but those won't get your official support.
>!  
>! That would be a Real Engine, instead making different versions of the engine.
>!  
>! Because what EO4 is now, is much like a game, and you sell the game with tools to modify it, that's why all game projects here are looking the same, having the same gameplay, nothing new under the sun.
>!  
>! Imagine Ragnarok Online Private Server, you got the tools to modify it, but even so, everything feels the same whatever private server you play.
>! It's not like  it can get turn based or sidescroller, because the game was never meant for that, meaning it's not an engine, that's how EO4 is.
>!  
>! Take a look on Construct engine, you can make all kind of games, sidescrollers, top down, card games, etc.
>!  
>! In my opinion that's how an engine should be, **Flexible**.

[hisherwin]

Well i think this site will be popular again if someone here just release a 3D RPG Game Maker with a friendly editors and easy to use.. People might get hooked for those stuffs..

And also i think most of the games that are being published here are games with 8-Bit graphics, Using RPGMaker Graphics, or some Custom Shit Art.. Even i admit that i use to do alot of games with those concept but now i got bored on doing it, I'm just currently enjoying remixing songs, Watching Anime's and playing Guitar

Also it might be better if they don't delete a thread at the same time ban the person who release something far better engine than the one they have which is EO4, I notice that most of the good programmers on this site are getting banned for some reason

[Ezemel]

A 3D RPG engine would be a Bad idea, for a few reasons:

- There already are many 3D game engines

- 3D models are time consuming, not to mention they have to be textured, rigged and animated, and that my friend, is a lot of work, and would require more than a few bucks to convince someone to do that for you, because obviously nobody will do that for free.

Good luck spending thousands of $.

Why a 2D engine would be better? [a multiplayer online rpg engine, not just a simple game engine]

Because, anyone can make 2D art, no matter how noob looking the graphics are, they can be used in game and the game has something to play with.

It's less expensive and really easy to learn and to find a pixel artist/2D artist.

[Growlith1223]

> Well i think this site will be popular again if someone here just release a 3D RPG Game Maker with a friendly editors and easy to use.. People might get hooked for those stuffs..

The forums has basically become dead for quite a while. it's gone beyond that saving point really. A 3D rpg engine is a horrible idea as there are already engines out there you can use(Unity, Frostbite, CryEngine, etc.) that provide a huge plus to 3D developers rather than making their own.

a game is a game. the graphics generally have no effect on gameplay. The good programmers are getting banned half the time mostly due to knowing that the engine(s) being produced on here are failing and hardly being developed(albeit jc has in fact said why EclipseV hasn't been worked on but the delay of such message is too much since he has been online countless times and he never made a post regarding said problem.)

The site was good, but the entire thing of the closed source kind of blew everyone up and they eventually left because of it. the pricing is a bit(understatement) of a rip off. $20 would have been a much more suitable price. the whole thing of "Gold benefits" is also a bit of a turnoff as you're screwed either way, from what i recall, the limits they put on silver, is slightly lifted on gold, meaning you still have hardly enough headroom for anything really.

This is just me ranting a little but this is how i see it, They tried something, it failed, and they paid an enormous toll for it(member loss).

Sincerely,

Growlith1223

[Chief]

The ignorance… Guys, Eclipse V is under development, and if you were a developer, you'd know how long something like that takes. There are always refactors and rewrites that go into a project that large. Be patient; if you can't wait, you're free to leave and join another forum.

For Eclipse V, $20 is too cheap. Do you realize that RPG Maker is usually around $60, and that's only a single player engine. Not all game engines are free, and should the developer decide on a price, you can either buy it or use a different engine.

Enough with the drama, already. We know that the community isn't as strong as it used to be. Us that were around for years and years are growing up, getting real jobs, starting real lives. Right now, the community is centered around an engine created in VB6, it simply doesn't appeal to as many new users, especially in a world where Unity and UDK exist. Us being less active simply has to do with the other available game engines out there today.

[Ezemel]

You're the one that doesn't understand, and that's why I didn't agree with you being a Legend, mwuhahaha >:)

This community was based around free open source engines, with people learning and posting projects and such.

RPG Maker is about selling the product only, it never was Open Source and it never was free.

Eclipse isn't a business only community and shouldn't be, that was their mistake wich lead to such a deserted place.

Anyhow, Eclipse V even if worths x$, doesn't mean they can't be smart about it, since this is a community with a history based on free stuff for indie game development.

The smartest thing they can pull up is either what I suggested, either something even better than that, wich at the moment I don't really see what could be.

[Chief]

Every website is a business, regardless of what the community says. You see that banner ad on the bottom? Now you're in the advertising business. You can join the forum? Now you offer social services. You offer a product, even if free, you're now dispersing your hard work among customers. Eclipse is a lot more of a business than you think. This thread is silly.

[Ezemel]

Alright you still don't get it and not gonna argue with you anymore. :P

[MadalinV]

I completely agree. The price is too high for the quantity of features it supplies. I would suggest open source - price 20$ or 30$ with a starting kit (separate kit would be 12$). that would make it better. by a LOT. also, as stated by this.. this hatty hat, scripts/modules. they could be added to the current Eclipse Shop, or even replace that, then have a way (if there isn't one already) to add points from real cash and make the points rise a lot slower so it would make it so painful to earn the needed points that you'd actually pay money for it. (or try to be a badass and earn all those points in a year or two)

[Mohenjo Daro]

Really this community died as time progressed and ownership changed. That is what killed it. EO4 being closed source was just over kill added. I don't know what would have happened if it was open source, but I can see there being more games and less bugs with it.

Hopefully the EO V programmers get some direction one of these days and finish the coding, because, I'm sorry, when the programmers know how to make an engine and are good/decent at what they do, it should take around a year to finish the engine.

[Chief]

I blame Mistro.

(also, your logic is starting to border on selfishness. If you really want an engine like V, feel free to make your own)

[Murdoc]

> Before getting me wrong, please read: _**This is not a complain thread, I'm not trying to make this community look bad or any of the staff, I'm just telling what I have in mind and in my heart, trying not to offence people.**_
>
>  
>
> _**Please read everything before posting !**_
>
>  
>
> _**Thank you!**_
>
>
> >! My past here is not really important, though I was here since 2008, seen a lot of stuff, had great and bad times, met various personalities, some annoying and interesting ones.
> >!  
> >! Anyhow, I bet everybody can notice the emptyness of this forum, and that's why I made this thread, to talk about it, and what could we do.
> >!  
> >! Some attempts were made by Crest and other nice members, but no luck.
>
>  
>
> **Why Eclipse went  from 99+ Members online/day to 5+/day ?**
>
>  
>
> >! The main reason wasn't that marshy dearest sold the forum to Amish, and people got upset, even though that is partially true, it ain't the main reason.
> >!  
> >! What the Main Problem was: the EO4 Engine and the Staff. [keep in mind: "was"]
> >!  
> >! How so?
> >!  
> >! Everyone had great hopes for a nice EO4 engine with all kind of new features, they got disappointed, closed source, buggy and expensive.
> >!  
> >! That was their first Main Mistake, there are better ways to make money out of an engine.
> >! [Like: selling "features" scripts]
> >!  
> >! Their 2nd and biggest mistake was the Staff.
> >!  
> >! They were too closed minded, even the smallest mistake or word was severely punished.
> >! Deleted Threads and Posts for Unknown reasons.
> >! Temporary even Permanent Bans for dumb reasons.
> >! "They were never helping people, being nice and greeting people doesn't mean help" -Dr.House [banned member of Eclipse]
> >!  
> >! Because of that, people who felt that they don't belong anymore to this community, leaved and started their own communities, dragging after them other members from eclipse.
> >!  
> >! With no real updates and news about EclipseV, people started to slowly avoid this community, knowing that there is nothing new and most likely will never be.
> >!  
> >! From time to time they drop by to read and stalk some members, 5 minutes, and they fade away for another few weeks, months or years.
> >!  
> >!  
> >! After a few complains, things got better, staff no longer deleted threads and posts for their personal reasons, no more unfair bans.
> >!  
> >! But now is too late.
> >!  
> >! The forum is deserted.
>
>  
>
> **What they can do?**
>
>  
>
> >! They should find a way to please everyone, not only the VIPs.
> >!  
> >! In a Pay2Win mmorpg, non cash shop players quit first, that's 50~80% of the playerbase, the rest of them are cash shoppers, they compete with eachother until a certain point, everyone is strong enough, economy is a mess, chat is filled with stupid childish messages, and eventually they quit too.
> >!  
> >! **Translated will be like this**:  If you release an Engine that only those who pay or buy it benefits, and the rest of people who cannot afford or who refuse to pay are left out, they will quit first.
> >! After a while, when VIP members made their games and post them, criticism and other complains appear, most of them get upset and quit, lose motivation to make games, or they continue making games for themselves until they get bored and quit.
> >!  
> >! The community gets smaller and smaller, everyday threads you used to see are not that common anymore, until a point when everything stops.
>
>  
>
> **My suggestion for Eclipse V**
>
>  
>
> >! Either Closed or Open Source but with a Scripting feature, wich will allow people to make their own unique game, whatever style and type, sidescroller, turn based, arpg, etc.
> >!  
> >! **Making $ by having a Script Shop**
> >! Selling Custom Made Graphics
> >! Of course there will be scripts made by members for free, but those won't get your official support.
> >!  
> >! That would be a Real Engine, instead making different versions of the engine.
> >!  
> >! Because what EO4 is now, is much like a game, and you sell the game with tools to modify it, that's why all game projects here are looking the same, having the same gameplay, nothing new under the sun.
> >!  
> >! Imagine Ragnarok Online Private Server, you got the tools to modify it, but even so, everything feels the same whatever private server you play.
> >! It's not like  it can get turn based or sidescroller, because the game was never meant for that, meaning it's not an engine, that's how EO4 is.
> >!  
> >! Take a look on Construct engine, you can make all kind of games, sidescrollers, top down, card games, etc.
> >!  
> >! In my opinion that's how an engine should be, **Flexible**.

While I agree with you, Eclipse V is not in full development. I have my sources.

Let me add to this, so I don't sound like a pessimist. The way this community will evolve is like it always has in the past. Some are gonna disagree with me. But, having been around long enough to see the trends, I can tell you that the community itself is the key to our survival. If people care enough about the engine or the community dying then it won't. There's no need to wait for the Holy Grail to descend from the Gods, so to speak. Let me elaborate.

When Eclipse was called Elysium (I can't go back any further in history, but I'm sure someone else here could) it was supported and added onto by the community at large. People made contributions (code, graphics etc) and others compiled these contributions into various versions of the Engine. Move ahead in time and we have Eclipse Origins. While, largely created by Robin it too was a community project in the end. And it was graciously made for a free by a community member, not staff. 

Until Eclipse became closed source, the engine was like one big community project. Now that it doesn't feel like that anymore, its no wonder people feel more alienated. Like they're not part of the big picture. Much like the poor folks on mmo titles that don't realize they're playing a pay-to-win game.

You also failed to mention several other variables in relation to community decline. Such as the lack of interest in 2d mmo genre. You can say "Well look at Mabinogi, and all those other foreign isometric p2w you can play in your browser". Don't matter in the slightest, considering they are professionally polished and funded by companies with more money than Scrooge. They pay for advertising and they're crappy micro-transaction, linear, boring games make moola.

The main point I agree on you with, is to revert Eclipse from something you pay for back to the community based engine it used to be. This could be done with scripts like you said. Even donations should be considered at this point. *little joke*

Why? Because with the current trend no money will ever be made to keep paying the programmers. Most hobbyist game creators (Almost 99% of the Eclipse forum) don't care about all these features. Why? Because they have no intention of making money. Now, if they were to decide to make money then an initial investment into an engine would make sense. 

So here's where I think it all went wrong. Eclipse goes from being a community based engine where someone can make a game for a hobby, to a money making machine. Naturally, people start to wonder if they can make a commercial project to make money like the Eclipse Staff are. Some get offended and take off. Others don't care because they're just doing what they've always done.

I could be wrong but I just don't think Eclipse should have ever tried to climb the corporate ladder. If Eclipse V ever comes out and people can make return on an initial investment (so many factors here) then I'll stick my foot in my mouth. But I wouldn't hold your breathe.

> The ignorance… Guys, Eclipse V is under development, and if you were a developer, you'd know how long something like that takes. There are always refactors and rewrites that go into a project that large. Be patient; if you can't wait, you're free to leave and join another forum.
>
>  
>
> For Eclipse V, $20 is too cheap. Do you realize that RPG Maker is usually around $60, and that's only a single player engine. Not all game engines are free, and should the developer decide on a price, you can either buy it or use a different engine.
>
>  
>
> Enough with the drama, already. We know that the community isn't as strong as it used to be. Us that were around for years and years are growing up, getting real jobs, starting real lives. Right now, the community is centered around an engine created in VB6, it simply doesn't appeal to as many new users, especially in a world where Unity and UDK exist. Us being less active simply has to do with the other available game engines out there today.

Hate to disappoint, but it's not "under" development. It's stuck in development.

[Zetasis]

 Murdoc I think you hit the nail on the head. You pretty much took the words right out of my mouth.

Also, another thing I would like to point out, is that eclipse has gotten to a point where if your game doesn't look professional no one will even give it a chance, let alone have the decency not to not leave a rude comment. When I first joined, in the days of Eclipse Evolution, there were a ton of games that looked extremely amateur at best but yet people still didn't leave rude or hateful comments. Hell, I kind of think the amateur atmosphere of the community was a good thing in my opinion. At least back then there were a larger number of games being produced then there is now.

[Mohenjo Daro]

> Also, another thing I would like to point out, is that eclipse has gotten to a point where if your game doesn't look professional no one will even give it a chance, let alone have the decency not to not leave a rude comment. When I first joined, in the days of Eclipse Evolution, there were a ton of games that looked extremely amateur at best but yet people still didn't leave rude or hateful comments. Hell, I kind of think the amateur atmosphere of the community was a good thing in my opinion. At least back then there were a larger number of games being produced then there is now.

I completely agree with you here. The amateur games just discouraged people less in making a game, there was no standard, if you had an idea then you put it up and people played it and gave HELPFUL input, not just; nope, didn't like it.

[Chief]


[Mohenjo Daro]

Chief, you're furthering my point…

[Chief]

The point is that you guys are nothing but take, take take. We want eclipse V, and we want it yesterday, and it has to be free, and also don't judge my games if they're total garbage! 

Come on, is that really realistic? If you truly want to contribute to the community, maybe pick up the hosting costs? Maybe quit your day job and spend all of your time coding a new engine for us? Try to look at this from all angles, because right now, all I see are children demanding progress (and free progress at that).

[Mohenjo Daro]

Chief, that is not what we are saying, but this is where I'm ending, I don't feel like arguing with you because I'd have better luck arguing with my brick wall.

[deathtaker26]

I wish I had the money to buy out eclipse when Marsh sold it to Amish, I'm not trying to be offensive towards him or be really arrogant, but I feel like having the owner be more active towards eclipse might help for one thing, and the second thing is I'm on here almost every day, lurking, reading, posting, and chatting with members. I just feel like It's something I'd be good at, running a community.

The second thing is. If you're going to profit off open source software just offer hosting and say no one else is allowed to provide hosting of any kind to others. Meaning, they can host their own servers, but people can't sell or give hosting to other people.

Third, if they're going to let people sell services on here, make it something you can profit off of. Create a system like CoderHirer where you can sell scripts on the site and you make 10%. 

Fourth, The forums is really an eye sore… especially that random slideshow thing at the top that never change. I mean... the theme is kinda ugly too..  but that slideshow... is there even a purpose? I mean atleast update it here and there and put it some cool images.

[deathtaker26]

> The point is that you guys are nothing but take, take take. We want eclipse V, and we want it yesterday, and it has to be free, and also don't judge my games if they're total garbage! 
>
>  
>
> Come on, is that really realistic? If you truly want to contribute to the community, maybe pick up the hosting costs? Maybe quit your day job and spend all of your time coding a new engine for us? Try to look at this from all angles, because right now, all I see are children demanding progress (and free progress at that).

Sorry for the double post, but chief has a really good point. A lot of the community is VERY take take take… like a child wanting candy at that "mine" age. If you guys want to contribute make something for the community that is worth our time and something we won't. If you guys don't like having closed source software make a suggestion directly too Amish if you think you have another way for them to profit, This forum isn't exactly the definition of cheap and you're expecting a l out of them. Sure I bitched about stuff in my last reply, but when it comes down to it, realize that you DON'T own eclipse, your NOT staff, and you DON'T have a say in how things are run. Make suggestions all you want but it may or may not make  a difference.

[Mal]

Cough, Mavra2D, cough, feature complete (almost), no bugs, cough, learn C# and run with it, cough. :/

[Murdoc]

> I wish I had the money to buy out eclipse when marshy dearest sold it to Amish, I'm not trying to be offensive towards him or be really arrogant, but I feel like having the owner be more active towards eclipse might help for one thing, and the second thing is I'm on here almost every day, lurking, reading, posting, and chatting with members. I just feel like It's something I'd be good at, running a community.
>
> The second thing is. If you're going to profit off open source software just offer hosting and say no one else is allowed to provide hosting of any kind to others. Meaning, they can host their own servers, but people can't sell or give hosting to other people.
>
> Third, if they're going to let people sell services on here, make it something you can profit off of. Create a system like CoderHirer where you can sell scripts on the site and you make 10%. 
>
> Fourth, The forums is really an eye sore… especially that random slideshow thing at the top that never change. I mean... the theme is kinda ugly too..  but that slideshow... is there even a purpose? I mean atleast update it here and there and put it some cool images.

Good suggestions.

> Make suggestions all you want but it may or may not make  a difference.


[deathtaker26]

> Good suggestions.
>
>  
>
>  
>
> 

Lol, like I said it may or may not make a difference, doesn't mean I won't do it xD

[SkywardRiver]

> ** and you DON'T have a say in how things are run.**

Just gonna throw my two cents in on this.

I'd say we DO have a fair amount of say in how things are run. What on earth is the point of being a staff member if you have no community. I say this cause that's kinda what happened; people didn't like the way things were running, so they left, some by being banned for speaking their minds (still ridiculous by the way. what are we? Russia in WWII?), and some just leaving.

Anyways, I agree, things need to change or this place is gonna die. Heck I've even considered leaving from time to time, and I have the most recorded online time of anyone here of late. (since it started being recorded to display near the avatar)

[Ezemel]

I totally agree with Sky, also @Chief, this thread isn't about us telling Amish that we want a free open source engine.

If you better read my thread message, you will see that I bring the Eclipse V engine in discussion only if they will ever want their community back, because with anything else, I don't think they will ever be able to bring it.

So a new better engine could bring or not their community back.

But, they failed once, and I only suggested them something that will benefit them with the money they deserve for the time spent working on the engine and something that will make everyone happy VIP or not.

The engine can be in whatever programming language, and can cost x amount of $, that doesn't mean it will bring back the community.

Because 80% or more of the community didn't have money to hire people or to buy the engine, the forum lost that free indie game dev. spirit.

Sure, people can buy the new eclipse engine when it comes out, but if there is no community to show off your game with, no community to give advices and critics, no community to motivate you, then those people will 100% quit this and start somewhere else trying to get what they need.

That will affect a lot  eclipse, since it needs good words and advertising, especially good words from it's community, but it has to be honest words.

If the community hates this place what makes you think others want to join it?

There are still more things that you don't understand, but whatever.

Have a great day! :P