Lets make a tileset!

[Anna Comnena]

Yeah srsly bunch of downers in this thread now.
:icon_alabanza:

[xeross]

I never said it sucks in this state, I still think it's awesome, I just stated that matching styles would be more awesome.

[balliztik1]

@AdrianC:

> but I don't see any of you coming up with anything better, so whatev.

That argument has no logic. That's like telling a book reviewer that their opinions don't matter simply because they didn't write the book. An opinion is not invalidated by whether or not a person has done what you have, but by the logic behind the opinion. We're just giving _constructive_ criticism. Never once did we flame or insult the work done. We simply pointed out some tips that could help make the project turn out a bit more professionally. There's no need to be defensive or pull the "you try to do better, then!" card. And this may be the "same damn thing that has been repeated 1000 times", but did you ever think why? If it's being repeated over and over, and you're not listening, does that make those that criticize the ones blocking progress or yourself?

I appreciate the work on these sets. It shows that you are dedicated to the community and willing to put effort into something for everyone to use. Taking it an extra step, though, would give a more polished product in the end. The original RMXP sets are by multiple artists, but all in the same style and palette. Even if you look at other games that use tiles, such as Pokemon or similar, you'll find that there was more than one artist, but the palette and style is consistent throughout.

Like I said, all the tiles are very nicely done, and the work put in is inspiring, but it's not going to make an awesome tileset. If you truly want to make something great that Eclipse users will actually _want_ to use over other sets, this is not the way. If you're merely just trying to make a collaborative area for free tiles, that's fine as well, but just know that it can't compete with professionally-done tilesets when there's no standards set for style, palette, or much else.

Take that as you will. I respect your intent. I'm just trying to show you a way to increase the quality of the final product.

@Anna:

> Yeah srsly bunch of downers in this thread now.

Don't get me wrong; it's a great idea, and it's nice to see Eclipse's artists showing what they can do. It just lacks planning. Any time you've got more than one person, there needs to be a consensus for how the project is to be handled.

Coordination, not collaboration.

[Hippoman789]

@Ballie:

> That argument has no logic. That's like telling a book reviewer that their opinions don't matter simply because they didn't write the book. An opinion is not invalidated by whether or not a person has done what you have, but by the logic behind the opinion. We're just giving _constructive_ criticism. Never once did we flame or insult the work done. We simply pointed out some tips that could help make the project turn out a bit more professionally. There's no need to be defensive or pull the "you try to do better, then!" card. And this may be the "same damn thing that has been repeated 1000 times", but did you ever think why? If it's being repeated over and over, and you're not listening, does that make those that criticize the ones blocking progress or yourself?

Thanks for explaining my reasoning in a giant paragraph.

[Guest]

@Xeross:

> Or someone that would recolor/partially redo them so they all are 1 style, it would be even more awesome.

I'll do it. Give me a couple days And I'll repost it with beautiful colors.

[Guest]

Goofballs! The word professional and team keep popping up like mushrooms from people who seem to be majoring in philosophy's logic branch.

This is a FREE ENGINE and any attempt to create FREE graphics and tile sets for it is astounding and to be commended.

Stop telling us crap from some set of general rules and let us enjoy FREE and independent.

No one here is really trying to create a published title.

[magezhilo]

@slym:

> I'll do it. Give me a couple days And I'll repost it with beautiful colors.

Thanks Cool Cat! I can't wait to see it.

@Ambard:

> Goofballs! The word professional and team keep popping up like mushrooms from people who seem to be majoring in philosophy's logic branch.
>
> This is a FREE ENGINE and any attempt to create FREE graphics and tile sets for it is astounding and to be commended.
>
> Stop telling us crap from some set of general rules and let us enjoy FREE and independent.
>
> No one here is really trying to create a published title.

Dude, don't get mad cause they gave you a suggestion.

[AdrianC]

@Ballie:

> That argument has no logic. That's like telling a book reviewer that their opinions don't matter simply because they didn't write the book. An opinion is not invalidated by whether or not a person has done what you have, but by the logic behind the opinion. We're just giving _constructive_ criticism. Never once did we flame or insult the work done. We simply pointed out some tips that could help make the project turn out a bit more professionally. There's no need to be defensive or pull the "you try to do better, then!" card. And this may be the "same damn thing that has been repeated 1000 times", but did you ever think why? If it's being repeated over and over, and you're not listening, does that make those that criticize the ones blocking progress or yourself?
>
> I appreciate the work on these sets. It shows that you are dedicated to the community and willing to put effort into something for everyone to use. Taking it an extra step, though, would give a more polished product in the end. The original RMXP sets are by multiple artists, but all in the same style and palette. Even if you look at other games that use tiles, such as Pokemon or similar, you'll find that there was more than one artist, but the palette and style is consistent throughout.
>
> Like I said, all the tiles are very nicely done, and the work put in is inspiring, but it's not going to make an awesome tileset. If you truly want to make something great that Eclipse users will actually _want_ to use over other sets, this is not the way. If you're merely just trying to make a collaborative area for free tiles, that's fine as well, but just know that it can't compete with professionally-done tilesets when there's no standards set for style, palette, or much else.
>
> Take that as you will. I respect your intent. I'm just trying to show you a way to increase the quality of the final product.
>
> Don't get me wrong; it's a great idea, and it's nice to see Eclipse's artists showing what they can do. It just lacks planning. Any time you've got more than one person, there needs to be a consensus for how the project is to be handled.
>
> Coordination, not collaboration.

This whole thing was started as a collaborative project. It was never meant to compete with professional tilesets. Its just something fun to do for the whole community. I know its not the best quality tileset. I even said in the first post

Quote: I know that having multiple people working on a tileset is not ideal, but I don't care.

From the very start I knew that various styles would get mixed in. But people for some reason keep trying to tell me the same thing I already stated.

If anybody wants to get a good team, coordinate, and make a high quality set, then go right ahead. I haven't been actually active here in like almost a yr, and I'll soon disapear again, so I'm deffinetly not the one who will do this. This project if what it is. If you want to 'fix' it, then go right ahead. If you want to tell me whats wrong with it, well I (and everybody else that worked on this) already know it, and I'm not going to do anything about it.

Oh, and regarding the book reviewer argument. An author would care what the reviewer sais because he wants the book to sell. This is a free set, anybody can edit it as they please, so that it fits their needs, and frankly I don't care if anybody uses it or not.

[FinalLife]

@♥♠DDunit:

> Top-down tiles only, please.

wats a top-down tile?

[Hippoman789]

@Ambard:

> Goofballs! The word professional and team keep popping up like mushrooms from people who seem to be majoring in philosophy's logic branch.
>
> This is a FREE ENGINE and any attempt to create FREE graphics and tile sets for it is astounding and to be commended.
>
> Stop telling us crap from some set of general rules and let us enjoy FREE and independent.
>
> No one here is really trying to create a published title.

So true!

@FinalLife:

> wats a top-down tile?

Go play Legend of Zelda: A Link To the Past.

@slym:

> I'll do it. Give me a couple days And I'll repost it with beautiful colors.

I bet it's going to look like shit.
Not because you are making it, but because you are CHANGING it to be in one style. Most likely your own.

[balliztik1]

@AdrianC:

> Oh, and regarding the book reviewer argument. An author would care what the reviewer sais because he wants the book to sell. This is a free set, anybody can edit it as they please, so that it fits their needs, and frankly I don't care if anybody uses it or not.

If that's what you aim to do, then, as you wish. I will say nothing more.

@Ambard:

> Goofballs! The word professional and team keep popping up like mushrooms from people who seem to be majoring in philosophy's logic branch.
>
> This is a FREE ENGINE and any attempt to create FREE graphics and tile sets for it is astounding and to be commended.
>
> Stop telling us crap from some set of general rules and let us enjoy FREE and independent.
>
> No one here is really trying to create a published title.

Inquisitor's set is made by an amateur guy who just wanted a set of free tiles for everyone to use, and they are of great quality. His sets are among some of the highest rated of all the free tilesets out there for tile-based games. There's no reason why you shouldn't strive for that. Saying that you accept mediocrity simply because it's free is only hurting yourself, your project, and essentially, your target audience, the community. The work done is great, and it's nice to see people doing this work on behalf of the community, but with at least some measure of organization, like the other sets had, it can actually be a viable and great product. Right now, I'm seeing a great idea with a good output, but it could be a great idea that turns out to make a great set. I know that a community project won't be professional, but it should at least be organized, because right now, there's plenty of other free, highly polished and well-organized sets. I've got nothing against anything being done, but it's just a suggestion to make it better, for the sake of the project, so the community benefits more.

But I'm not really going to change anything by pointing that out, as it's been said to me. It's already been decided that this is a collect-all for good tiles, not a coordination for a good set.

[xeross]

@Hippoman:

> I bet it's going to look like shit.
> Not because you are making it, but because you are CHANGING it to be in one style. Most likely your own.

Ehm if it's his style it'll be even more awesome then it is now, just look at his pixel work.

[Guest]

@Hippoman:

> I bet it's going to look like shit.
> Not because you are making it, but because you are CHANGING it to be in one style. Most likely your own.

So you are infering that I can only do one style? That is a very ignorant and pathetic thing to say.

[Hippoman789]

@slym:

> So you are infering that I can only do one style? That is a very ignorant and pathetic thing to say.

Did I give off the impression that I said that? I didn't think I did.

Basically, you are going to take out the originality of the work. You don't go and fix the leaning tower of pisa, (as said before), or rewrite the Constitution then call it the original.

You leave it alone, and you love it as it is.

[Guest]

@Hippoman:

> Did I give off the impression that I said that? I didn't think I did.
>
> Basically, you are going to take out the originality of the work. You don't go and fix the leaning tower of pisa, (as said before), or rewrite the Constitution then call it the original.
>
> You leave it alone, and you love it as it is.

Hippoman, I hate to be a downer, but these tiles look terrible at the moment. Some are great tiles, but this tileset is a mixture of skills. From a proffesional point of view this is just a bunch of tiles from artists of various skill levels thrown together with no transition. At the moment, I don't know how many people would but I certainly would not use these in any of my productions. I am not trying to dis the graphic artists who did this. I am saying that it contains simply good and bad tiles. And it will look bad mixed together no matter what you say to argue.

[azure]

Actually Slym you fail to see that the exact thing that's wrong with the tiles is what makes them great. I don't prefer the style either, but it's a group effort, not something we do personally. Considering what these tiles are they are wonderful, and to be honest they still look better than crappy rmxp tiles.

[balliztik1]

@slym:

> Hippoman, I hate to be a downer, but these tiles look terrible at the moment. Some are great tiles, but this tileset is a mixture of skills. From a proffesional point of view this is just a bunch of tiles from artists of various skill levels thrown together with no transition. At the moment, I don't know how many people would but I certainly would not use these in any of my productions. I am not trying to dis the graphic artists who did this. I am saying that it contains simply good and bad tiles. And it will look bad mixed together no matter what you say to argue.

This is true. Regardless, that's not really what they aim to do. The intent is not to have a perfect set of tiles, but rather a collaboration. You can't really "fix" that, as it stems from the organization of the project itself. It doesn't set out to be a one-style tileset, so post-edits aren't going to make it one, especially if more tiles get added. It's just more work for you, slym.

What you can do, though, is attempt a more fluent tileset of your own. It'd be the same amount of work, realistically, and you'd have all the credit. You wouldn't be taking tiles, stripping them, then editing them, but making tiles that worked together from the get-go.

@Hippoman:

> So true!
> I bet it's going to look like shit.
> Not because you are making it, but because you are CHANGING it to be in one style. Most likely your own.

And Hippoman, something doesn't turn out to look like shit because it's altered to be more fluent. There are two sides to the argument here. First is the community argument, and second is the aesthetics argument. By allowing the community to contribute tiles, you get many styles, which lowers the aesthetic quality of a map. By doing one style, it increases the quality, but limits the amount of community involvement. You are arguing that making it look better would make it look worse. It doesn't quite work. Take the Inquisitor's set as prime example. It's in one style. It doesn't look like shit, like you claim it would. The style has nothing to do with your argument. Change doesn't make something worse, on its own.

You cite the Tower of Pisa. That's a perfect example, but with the wrong point. The tower is no longer usable, because it wasn't thought through beforehand. It aimed to be a tower. It's not because it was done in the wrong fashion. Now, it has no usage as a tower. If it had been done correctly and placed on better ground, it would be a monument without having flaws. But you can't just fix it now, as it's already been done.

This is like the tileset issue slym is trying to fix. The issue is that the tiles are mixed. Slym wants to make them flow better, to be a more viable tileset. While the intent is good, it doesn't really work, because then it is not what it was - just like if the Tower of Pisa was moved and righted; it simply wouldn't be the Leaning Tower anymore. The problem comes from the source, and no amount of editing will keep it true to what it was, even if the results are better able to be used. It's obviously flawed, but people have pride in those flaws. Editing will make it better, and will make it more usable, but people don't want that, as you and others are fair proof of.

@[SB:

> Azure link=topic=35513.msg573024#msg573024 date=1257868415]
> Actually Slym you fail to see that the exact thing that's wrong with the tiles is what makes them great.
>
> Considering what these tiles are they are wonderful

Only from one point of view, however. This is along the same lines as what I said to Hippoman. Just because they are free and made for the community, the set will not intrinsically be a great set. As I mentioned, there's the community and the aesthetics. It is great, as you say, in the community aspect, in that these are free for use and made by members here. However, they can be amazingly generous and quite a display of collaboration, but not look the best. Yes, they look good, but not the best they can be. If there were a rating system for these kinds of things, I'd likely rate this a 10/10 on community, for them being free for all Eclipse members, but maybe about a 7/10 on how they look. They are good, but not perfect. In comparison, look at my constant example of Inquisitor's set. They are also free, and made for a specific community, but are outstanding. His gets a 10/10 in both regards. RMXP, on the other hand, have a huge set of constant-styled tiles that allow for a very smooth game - 10/10\. However, they are restricted in use, and you have to buy the license for them. That'd net them about 1/10 in the community regard. Even though these tiles, then, are rated so highly, in average, to the RMXP sets, why do so many use them? It's because people only look at the tiles. No matter how much teamwork and collaboration goes in, it won't make it look better. If one set looks better, but the other has a nice backstory, a majority of people would prefer the aesthetic set.

The community aspect is not to be ignored, but by their very definition, a set should look good and flow well. Aesthetics should be of top priority. And that doesn't mean that a tileset needs to be wonderfully drawn or anything. A while back, I wanted a second GFX artist for my Stickworld RPG, but I couldn't find anyone who could properly emulate my style or palette. While their art would've worked, it didn't within a single set of tiles. Now, my tiles aren't masterpieces, as I'm no master at pixeling, but they look nice when placed next to each other and all fit the same style.

Dammit. Another essay of a post that won't accomplish anything.  XD

[azure]

You make many good points Ballie. I was just pointing out that it's been my experience you get what you pay for.

[Hippoman789]

@slym:

> Hippoman, I hate to be a downer, but these tiles look terrible at the moment. Some are great tiles, but this tileset is a mixture of skills. From a proffesional point of view this is just a bunch of tiles from artists of various skill levels thrown together with no transition. At the moment, I don't know how many people would but I certainly would not use these in any of my productions. I am not trying to dis the graphic artists who did this. I am saying that it contains simply good and bad tiles. And it will look bad mixed together no matter what you say to argue.

We don't need a professional view, we want it to be ours. We want it to be our own, not yours. Not one persons.

As ballie said, It limits the art work. Ruins it. Not the same.
You don't take an Atari and fix all the problems with it. You don't take Daggerfall and fix all the bugs, The bugs made it amazing. That's what 80% of the people I know love so much about it. And by people I know I mean just about anyone whose ever played.

@Ballie:

> Dammit. Another essay of a post that won't accomplish anything.  XD

haha, So true.

[AdrianC]

Guys, chill.

Man, everybody is so hostile here.

[Hippoman789]

Yep, it gets that way.
I'm the most hated on Eclipse I'm pretty sure.
Doesn't matter, people don't change.

[Dark Crusade]

@AdrianC:

> Man, everybody is so hostile here.

RAWR RAWR KILL KILL STAB STAB

I must agree with Bal's point of view, but each to their own opinion. I won't ever be using graphics that is not my very own content, so it doesn't affect me the slightest. =)

[azure]

Kreator, as much as I love your tiles, I have to disagree with your statement. Even if you made ever single tile from scratch you are modeling them after a preexisting copyrighted style, so they can never be 100% your own content.

On a lighter note, I agree, I don't see myself using these tiles, but to me they are far better than rmxp tiles.

[Hippoman789]

@[SB:

> Azure link=topic=35513.msg573288#msg573288 date=1257933057]
> On a lighter note, I agree, I don't see myself using these tiles, but to me they are far better than rmxp tiles.

I'd use em instead of RPGmaker. But I'm probably using ghost's.

[Dark Crusade]

@[SB:

> Azure link=topic=35513.msg573288#msg573288 date=1257933057]
> Kreator, as much as I love your tiles, I have to disagree with your statement. Even if you made ever single tile from scratch you are modeling them after a preexisting copyrighted style, so they can never be 100% your own content.

If your going to nitpick, you'd find that everything is similar to something. In a world where theres such vast amounts of content, it's hard to find something truly original.