"Your Game."

[Fred]

@Azure:

> You hand me a game without gfx, music, effects, story, or even decent game design and I'll hand you a textbook. That is not gaming and never will be.

Chess don't need all this stuff and its one of the perfect game in the world. What more prove you want?

[azure]

Phexion- Chess is a game of whit and a board game at that. it is not a video game by any means of comparison; however, I play chess and it has the just as many intricacies as any video game. The difference is the human factor.

Kris- The main argument (at this point) is that coding is equal to any other part of game design but not any greater. I keep pointing out what exactly programing does for a game, but apparently most people swear that you can have a fully presentable game with nothing but code. I disagree because I've studied the game making process and I've seen a lot of good games in the past ten years. The ones that are most remembered had a lot more than three pixels bouncing around the screen. (lol pong reference)

I started a thread in the debate section for this topic.

[Fred]

@Azure:

> Phexion- Chess is a game of whit and a board game at that. it is not a video game by any means of comparison; however, I play chess and it has the just as many intricacies as any video game. The difference is the human factor.

Its also computer game. Many people play chess in computer / mobile so its counting.

[Godlord]

@pheXion:

> Godlord - You are making a mistake also. There are different tastes in the world. Much persons like realism in games. I have a friend who example will never play in game with "magic". He like only real games.
> Games like Dune was good in their times. Now times are change, today not much people will like Dune II if they have alot other good RTS games like example StarCraft, DoW2 etc.

Different tastes? Go tell that to the commercial game industry. It looks like they only produce games for one kind of taste and forget about the others. Time has changed because capitalism now rules the world and if you're too blind to see that, then I can't do anything about that. If people really liked realism, everybody would only watch a few things: documentaries, real-life films, the news and the weather.

@[THE-KRIS:

> link=topic=53225.msg564543#msg564543 date=1256569961]
> but its the coding what makes the game…
>
> i mean....
>
> yeh gfx are important
>
> but without coding the gfx just wouldnt work
>
> it needs the programming aspect to give it the realism. programming gives the feel of realism. bad programming means no atmosphere etc. the programming makes the game what it is, it makes the features what they are and gives the aspects a meaning. if you jsut take a game that gives you a space bar as shoot and the mouse as aim and nothing more yeh it might be good for the first 5 seconds but then sucks badass style.
>
> Where as take the (hopefully non existant) game, give it a little computer ai, make it go darker and lighter, fog etc. add some sort of time into it. add some events based off the time and its slightly more addictive

Coding does not make a game, it only provides the base of the game. Without a story it would just be a sandbox and this is why all the Tycoon games get boring at some point. Without music, we usually get bored too. The point is that each aspect in a game is important.

@pheXion:

> Its also computer game. Many people play chess in computer / mobile so its counting.

And how is chess realistic? Chess is one of the games where you actually escape from the realistic world, just like Tetris, Pong, Pacman and various other simple but enjoyable titles.

Regards,
  Godlord.

[Fred]

@Godlord:

> Different tastes? Go tell that to the commercial game industry. It looks like they only produce games for one kind of taste and forget about the others.

I see plenty of non realistic and realistic games. Maybe you are living in different universe?
Besides: time has changed because capitalism? what are you talking about men? Creating games was always commercial.

> If people really liked realism, everybody would only watch a few things: documentaries, real-life films, the news and the weather.

Maybe thats why news is most popular in tv?
Your problem is you have only one side of view. You say "everybody would **only** watch" - its very narrow-minded.

> Coding does not make a game, it only provides the base of the game. Without a story it would just be a sandbox and this is why all the Tycoon games get boring at some point. Without music, we usually get bored too. The point is that each aspect in a game is important.

Coding ITS a GAME. Because in code are rules of game.
Story its most non intresting thing in game. People playing much games and dont even read/know what the story is. I know  people who even are not watching story-movies before games because they just want to play - not watch.

Music in games? Sometimes its ok, but when i play example mmorpg games i everytime turn off music and play foobar - i have better music in mp3 so its also not so important.

> And how is chess realistic?

Are you asking me? Where i say it is?

Open your eyes and try sometimes see things in broad spectrum. Because your thinking its very limited for me.

[Godlord]

@pheXion:

> I see plenty of non-realistic and realistic games. Maybe you are living in a different universe?
> Besides time has changed because of capitalism? What are you talking about, man? Creating games has always been commercial.

Yeah, I am living in a different universe. The universe that is ruled by capitalism, maybe you should open your eyes and see that the USSR has already died and that all the communism has already failed. Of course games have been commercial since they existed, but you, who thinks he knows everything better, fails to see that there's a difference between getting money for a living and getting money just to be rich and in the present only the latter is the real reason for companies such as EA Games, Microsoft, Ubisoft, Eidos and various others.

@pheXion:

> Maybe that's why news is the most popular on the TV?

It definitely isn't. But what would I know about it? I'm narrow-minded anyway. Even though the most popular thing on everybody's television are the advertisements.

@pheXion:

> Your problem is that you have only one side of view. You say "everybody would **only** watch" - It's very narrow-minded.

I think you're the only one here considering that a problem. Especially since I'm talking for a lot of other people who actually played good games in their life and not for the people who only play those capitalistic games.

@pheXion:

> Coding ITS a GAME. (I don't even know what you wrote here) Because the code is where the rules of game are set.
> The story is the most uninteresting aspect of a game. People play many games and don't even read/know what the story is about. I know people who aren't even watching story-movies before games because they just want to play - not watch.

Programming a game is so important that companies actually tend to not have good 3D models, but a well-coded game. What a nonsense. Programming is not the only aspect of a game. All aspects are important, even stories. If there's no story, then there's no game, because then it's just the boring sandbox stuff like always. Why would you read the story in a game? I don't think you've ever played games, because you'd know that you don't read the story but live the story. Also people tend to play games instead of watching films due to the fact that they want to live the story and not see it. Perhaps try spending some time in reading my statements, opinions and arguments next time?

@pheXion:

> Music in games? Sometimes its ok, but when i play example mmorpg games i everytime turn off music and play foobar - i have better music in mp3 so its also not so important.

Thanks, now I see that I'm wasting my time by arguing with someone who doesn't know what a true game is. MMORPG's are one of the three types of games which are being copied over and over again. Just a new cover, perhaps another atmosphere and see there, a new MMORPG. This is one of the type of games I don't even consider playing due to the fact that if you played a MMORPG once, that you actually have played them all or well all the generic ones.

[Definition of generic](http://www.stumbleupon.com/s/#16P54k/www.collegehumor.com/video:1906578/topic:Humor) (Thanks to Pete).

@pheXion:

> Open your eyes and try sometimes see things in broad spectrum. Because your thinking is very limited for me.

How about you opening your eyes first? So that you can at least check your spelling and grammar before even trying to insult me.

Regards,
  Godlord.

[Fred]

@Godlord:

> maybe you should open your eyes and see that the USSR has already died and that all the communism has already failed.

You realy live in other universe. I want talk about games and you are talking about USSR.

@Godlord:

> but you, who thinks he knows everything better, fails to see that there's a difference between getting money for a living and getting money just to be rich

I dont have problem with that. If they are making good games there are selling much and they have money. Its natural if you think they games are not good for you then you can qoute Azure "If everyone else is the problem then it is really you who is."

@Godlord:

> Even though the most popular thing on everybody's television are the advertisements.

Thats nice for you if you are watching TV  for ad's. You are perfect consumer then. Usualy people watching movies and news.

@Godlord:

> I think you're the only one here considering that a problem. Especially since I'm talking for a lot of other people who actually played good games in their life and not for the people who only play those capitalistic games.

Thats why i call you narrow-minded. Everything its relative, but not for you. For some of your friends your games can be good, for other people this same game can be shit and its hard to understood it for you i think. Corporations produce games who its best for majority. If they are not producing games what you like then just you have problem.

BTW… Can you tell  witch one are "capitalistics" games and witch one are not?

> Programming is not the only aspect of a game.

If course not, but its most important. And im suprised that im on (a little) programing forum with you and you dont realise that.

> I don't think you've ever played games

haha, sure im not.
You dont understood people like sometimes just sit, kill some monsters and after go for dinner. They are dont care about storys. You are trying to make big pseudo-philosophy from games witch they are not.
Of course there are stories important in some king of games like Baldurs Gate (its good example). This is the main sense of game then. But in most games this is not important… Who cares about story of Mario bros? You just want to get to the next level thats why its playble.

> Thanks, now I see that I'm wasting my time by arguing with someone who doesn't know what a true game is. MMORPG's are one of the three types of games which are being copied over and over again.

Ok i see that for you if game its simillar to other game then its "capitalism game" and other bad stuff? So… i have a different opinion. I think mmorpg are the one of best games for me and MMORPG its the best idea of new-age games. I dont care rules are simillar, they are just good. If i enjoy playing it i like it its simple.

> This is one of the type of games I don't even consider playing due to the fact that if you played a MMORPG once, that you actually have played them all or well all the generic ones.

If you play alot in mmorpg you know, there are some innovations in any of them (excluding eclipse games). They are not big and they are not revolutions but i can appreciate some of them. You are on mmorpg creators forum and you despise them? Thats strange paradox for me.
All paper RPG games are also the same for you?

> Definition of generic (Thanks to Pete).

Very nice link. Animators make it specially its a like "easter-eggs" i saw simmilar with pixar movies when some 3d objects are duplicated and putted in different movies.

> How about you opening your eyes first? So that you can at least check your spelling and grammar before even trying to insult me.

Open my eyes for what? For your absurdity? Dont try to using my statements because it have no sense in your post.
You can hide behind my not proper English i think its your only chance to survive this discussion.

[Drummerpete]

I do care about storylines, thank you very much.

[Ruins of Hell]

@Pete!:

> I do care about storylines, thank you very much.

Not everybody does.

I think that all parts of a game is important, which is why games with bad GFX/GUI are often turned away, even if they are coded correctly, but even a poorly coded game with the best graphics in the world would fail quickly

[Drummerpete]

@[SB:

> The Soul Numb link=topic=53225.msg564670#msg564670 date=1256593462]
> Not everybody does.

My point is, they are both taking things to the extreme. Lots of people care about different things, make a well rounded game that EVERYONE WILL LOVE. With zombie unicorns.

[Valon328]

@[SB:

> Tdogthedog link=topic=53225.msg563912#msg563912 date=1256443326]
> I'm bored so i made this topic  XD ok here it goes…
>
> You here people talk about "oh i'm making my own game and its so cool!" but can you really consider it "your game" if you use the basic tilesheets and everything that comes with eclipse? I myself make my own custom tilesheets and they are 100% mine. Even my game is 98% mine i used the 2 basic sprites so.. but other then that its all me... so what do you guys think?

Most newbs doesn't know its RMXP sprites, some of them think that eclipse made them.

Sugar On Top,
Valon

[Ruins of Hell]

It kind of impossible to please the whole world. Everybody would have different interests. If you try to please everyone, you'll end up pleasing no one.

[Valon328]

> that all the communism has already failed.

China lives!

Fruit Salad,
Valon

[Drummerpete]

@Vålöñシ:

> China lives!
>
> Fruit Salad,
> Valon

Except they aren't really Communist any more.

[Godlord]

@pheXion:

> You really live in another universe. I am talking about games and you are talking about the USSR.

[Cynicism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynicism), [Irony](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony) and [Metonymy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy), where you should really read the latter.

@pheXion:

> I don't have problem with that. If they are making good games, they're are selling much and they have money. It's natural. If you think their games are not good for you, then you can quote Azure "If everyone else is the problem then it is really you who is.".

The point is, that they aren't.

@pheXion:

> That's nice for you if you are watching TV for ad's. You are perfect consumer then. Usually people are watching movies and news.

That was not what I wrote. Please take your time and learn to read things carefully. I stated that advertisements are the most popular, not that they're the most watched.

@pheXion:

> That's why i call you narrow-minded. Everything is relative, but not for you. For some of your friends your games can be good, for other people this same game can be stercus and it's hard for you to understand that, I think. Corporations produce games that are liked by the majority. If they aren't producing the games you like, then that is your problem.

The only thing I don't understand is your badly written text. You don't read what I'm telling you, you don't even bother interpreting my arguments properly. I don't see the point of arguing with someone who can't even use the '-key on his keyboard. Corporations don't produce games that the majority of people like, they only produce games "good" enough to be sold, all they really care about is money. Like I said before, this universe is ruled by **capitalism**. But you might have skipped that, as you lack reading skills.

@pheXion:

> BTW… Can you tell which (Witch? What does a [witch](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch) have to do with games?) ones are "capitalistic" games and which one are not?

I already did, if you bothered to read, then you'd know already.

@pheXion:

> Of course not, but it's the most important. And I'm surprised that I'm on (a little) programming forum with you and you don't even realise that.

I'm surprised that I've to correct each sentence you wrote. How hard is it to at least install a spelling checker? Programming is not the most important aspect, in fact there's no important aspect. Like I said before, every aspect is important.

@pheXion:

> Haha, sure I haven't.
>
> You don't understand that people like me, sometimes just sit, kill some monsters and after that go to dinner. They don't care about stories. You are trying to make a big pseudo-philosophy about games.
>
> Of course, stories are important in some games like Baldur's Gate. This is the main "sense" of the game, in that case, but in most other games this isn't important. Who cares about the story of Mario Bros? You just want to get to the next level, that's why it is playable.

Like I said, go play some real games. Download Monkey Island, Castlevania or something similar to begin with. Then you'll see why stories are actually important.

@pheXion:

> OK, I see that if your game is similar to another game, that is a capitalistic game. So, I have another opinion. I think MMORPG-games are on of the best games for me and they're the best idea as for new age games. I don't care about the "rules" being similar. They are just as good. I enjoy playing it, because it's simple.

Copying does not make a game capitalistic, it's the other way round, capitalistic games are usually copied.

@pheXion:

> If you play a lot of MMORPG's, then you'll see that there are some innovations in most of them, except as for Eclipse games, they aren't big neither are they revolutionising, but I can appreciate some of them. You're on a MMORPG creator forum and you despise them? That's an odd paradox for me.
>
> All "paper" RPG-games are also the same for you?

The difference between Eclipse and all the Korean companies is that Eclipse is a hobbyist forum revolving around the creation of ORPG's and not MMORPG's, where as most Korean companies usually create MMORPG's, eventually copied and/or (partially) commercial.

@pheXion:

> Open my eyes? For what? For your absurdity? Don't try using my statements, because it makes no sense in your post.
> You can hide behind my not proper English, I think it's your only chance to survive this discussion.

I'm absurd? Several people saw this topic and they all agreed with me, that's quite odd, isn't it? Also, your trying to insult me with both bad spelling and grammar, that's just asking for problems.

I'm currently locking this topic, until you consider to improve your offence to the English language, that is improving grammar, spelling and eventually the choice of vocabulary. Perhaps then you'll know what's actually absurd.

Regards,
  Godlord.

[kris_hole]

wow…

i mean...

just wow goddie...

you owned everyone XD

[azure]

No I believe he just pwnd Phexion. Goddie and I have actually been having a great conversation about this among other subjects over pms. After scanning over that whole post I'd call that an Epic Win!! at least.

[Fred]

I dont understood, you first lock this topic and after when i make part II of this topic to continue conversation this topic its open again. I will paste now my answer from other topic witch i open. http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/smf/index.php/topic,53317.0.html

@Pete!:

> My point is, they are both taking things to the extreme. Lots of people care about different things, make a well rounded game that EVERYONE WILL LOVE. With zombie unicorns.

Don't mix me with Godlord. I all the time talk everybody like different things example talking about Baldurs Gate vs Mario Bros, and my friend who dont touch games with "magic", example i like magic in games.

@Godlord:

> [Cynicism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynicism), [Irony](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony) and [Metonymy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metonymy), where you should really read the latter.

1) Not everybody need wikipedia to know those world.
2) If you are using irony often you are mocker and tese, that person should not be a forum moderator.

> The point is, that they aren't.

Check the list of most selling games in the world and you will see they should be very rich, people are buying those games because those are good games. On the first place its EA Games who you hate because capitalism, you are funny with this capitalism thing. They have marketing specialist for strike to the most people. They dont carry about one Godlord from Eclipse forum, that sad for you but its true.

> Please take your time and learn to read things carefully. I stated that advertisements are the most popular, not that they're the most watched.

1) Thats is saying person who say before im tell chess is realistic game.
2) Go to your wikipedia or dictionary and read definition of "popular" and "most watched". Now compare differences.

> Corporations don't produce games that the majority of people like, they only produce games "good" enough to be sold, all they really care about is money. Like I said before, this universe is ruled by capitalism. But you might have skipped that, as you lack reading skills.

They are produce games for majority because this is marketing, they are big corporations and dont make games like Eclipse users "oh, now i will make maybe pokemon game". They analyse market. I dont know why you put "good" in "". If they are sold they are realy good, but you have learned new word in school "capitalism" and you are abusing it in your every post. And you are even dare to say i skip it. You are just funny guy.

> Like I said, go play some real games. Download Monkey Island, Castlevania or something similar to begin with. Then you'll see why stories are actually important.

Read one more time where i compare Baldurs gate and mario bros.

> The difference between Eclipse and all the Korean companies is that Eclipse is a hobbyist forum revolving around the creation of ORPG's and not MMORPG's, where as most Korean companies usually create MMORPG's, eventually copied and/or (partially) commercial.

So what the difference?  This is no difference ORPG and MMORPG have the same rules, the same template - we also copying shape of other mmorpg's. I say even more: Korean companies doing this much better and professional. WoW its also copy ideas from other games so why its the one of best selling game ever? I bet many eclipse users want to make game as WoW, but they just cant. You are on game type forum what you hates i dont understood that. Or you are just hipocrite.

> I'm absurd? Several people saw this topic and they all agreed with me, that's quite odd, isn't it?

Who agreed with you? I want to see those people now and read arguments. And why i dont see those people in this topic?

[balliztik1]

Whoa, whoa, guys. Take it to the debate forum. While this is very interesting, it's derailing the topic. I'd love to see the debate continue (and perhaps give my two cents ;D), but not here.

As for addressing the original topic, I suppose it's suffice to say that custom graphics do not make it your own game. I tend to lean towards Fred's thinking in that programming is what sets two games apart. Look at that link Goddie posted with the Disney movies, for example. The "programming", the actual actions being done, is the same, but with new "graphics", the characters. You can make your own graphics, compose an orchestral soundtrack, advertise everywhere, have a 20-man team, and still not be original or fun. MMOs, as Goddie stated, are indeed a very cookie-cutter genre by definition. I've played dozens of free and commercial MMORPGs, and it just seems like it's the same thing, just at different production levels. If I want to grind my way to the top, I could download a free Korean RPG, or go dump some money into WoW for a more polished version of the same thing, essentially.

My point is, you can change all the things the user sees, but if you're not changing what the user _does_, then your game is no more "yours" than the next guy's. You could make a farming game with RMXP graphics, or another "kill x creatures" MMORPG, and they'd be much different.

[azure]

I did take this to the debate forum. He didn't reply. Also I believe you make a great point Bali.

[balliztik1]

http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/smf/index.php/topic,53292.0.html

There we go. Replies on this matter go here.

[Kusy]

I don't have the time to read whole thread so I will just state my opinion about the coding and pointlessnes of this thread.

Coding is a funny thing - it is worth shit - yes that is true. But on the other hand it's the most important thing.
Explain:

It is worth shit to any averge player. Who played Silverdale? I did. And maybee Robin did some awesome coding wizardry there, maybee it was a VB pice of art… but I don't fucking see that - I'm no coder - all I saw was a game with a decent GUI, anicient graphics that should have died along with the games that were using it, and absolutely no idea for gameplay - killing bugs and birds till level 5 or something just to get pulverized by a frog or a bat in a not so decently maped cave.
PLAYERS DON'T SEE THE CODE AND THE GAME IS MADE FOR PLAYERS. Unless they are a fucking chosen ones and are here to save us from the matrix.

On the other hand - without the code there is nothing (uuu... sounds so dramaticaly). No graphics can be implemented, no concept. And that would be all about the code. If it exists - players don't give a damn about it because they don't fucking care about "how this works". And thank them for that.

About the whole toppic - it is pointless and stupid. Don't brag about your eclipse game being custom because it doesn't matter - it WILL NOT SUCED AS A GAME - it won't be popular, it wont bring you proffit - only thing you get is so called "experience" and the "fun" of making it. You probobly won't get anybody outside of this forum and apart your friends, family and pets to play it and become a dedicated player - and I understand that while there are TONS of free games out there that offer something more to the player.

Also about what Godie sayed about orginality/realism of games - you are right Godie. With small exeptions like BioWare.

And finaly about the debate thread - Azure, you nead to be really naive/stupid/lifless to make a debate about it. I suggest that you make one about what was first - the egg or the hen. No offence of course.

[azure]

Kussy You need to move that post to the thread above.

[Kusy]

@Azure:

> Kussy You need to move that post to the thread above.

no as I was reffering not only to that matter but also to this thread and what was sayed here.

[azure]

Actually no I made the topic So that the argument could continue in the right place and that we could get further input from people other than Me, Goddie, and Phexion. Also you need to debug(pun intended) your post and move most if not all of it to that thread. <_<

Now since I've already said my peace on the Op and the fact that you and Goddie have made the best points I could ever make I'll refrain from posting here.