Not Everyone is a Programmer…

[gamesucker]

This is just a small issue I have with some eclipsers. It's when people give the response "program it yourself"(this goes for artists too). I agree that people are sometimes lazy when it comes to things like this, but really, not every game developer is a programmer. Basically, developers fall into 1 or more of these categories: (not exactly indie game development, but you get the idea.)

>! 1\. Games Designer - comes up with the game play ideas, perhaps story line etc. Only a very few games designers have the luxury of designing a game from scratch. Normally you work in a team and are given a game idea by a publisher that you must then make work. Often the game idea comes from a license owned by the publisher e.g. a film license, toy license, sports. During the construction of a game a games designer will work mainly on balancing the game play, writing scripts and testing the game play.
  2\. Games Programmer - the programmer actually constructs the game code. This is a full time programming job, normally using C++ and involves the programming of the games' key systems including graphics, world simulation, game play, input, Artificial Intelligence (AI), Physics, User Interface (UI), multiplayer support etc. The programmer normally has no real say in the game play design, game story etc. however they can often contribute with ideas and make things possible through their programming skills.
  3\. Games Artist - creates all the art assets for the game. Art assets can include 2D art for 2D games and for User Interface (UI) elements and 3D modelling for 3D games. There is normally quite a lot of artistic freedom allowed here although each game team will have an art lead who makes the final decisions.
>! (#2 & 3 are the more sought after positions, in case you didn't know  ;D)
If someone's not a programmer then they shouldn't be asked to try to do advanced programming. Just like if your a programmer you shouldn't be asked to  try and make your own tilesheet.

something else about the "do it yourself" replies is that if everyone did everything by themselves then we would get nowhere. Think about it, if cavemen never learned from their elders you wouldn't exist. Everyone would still be a caveman. Same basic idea here. Our games will never get better if no one never shares what they've learned/accomplished with the rest of us, as we'd have to spend our time trying to do that too, instead of building off of that and doing greater things.

I understand that all 3 types of developers work hard on their art/program/concept or idea and that in doing so it makes it theirs, and theirs alone. That's ok, just don't start hoarding all of your earnings.
_[please tell me if this mindless rant made any sense at all]_

[IceCream Tuesday]

Do it yourself.

Why should others put work in something they studied, or practiced in order to make their ideas a reality, for YOUR game.

If you want something done, you can't rely on people. you need to figure out what you want, and do it yourself. your being lazy by saying.. i don't wanna learn how to..

If i didn't make sense.. sorry, I'm high :D

[gamesucker]

@[Pie:

> ICT link=topic=65484.msg703501#msg703501 date=1287554093]
> Do it yourself.
>
> Why should others put work in something they studied, or practiced in order to make their ideas a reality, for YOUR game.
>
> If you want something done, you can't rely on people. you need to figure out what you want, and do it yourself. your being lazy by saying.. I don't wanna learn how to..
>
> If I didn't make sense.. sorry, I'm high :D

haha.
I'm not actually talking about anything involving me, as I don't think I've ever asked for anyone to do any programming ever. But there are legit reasons people won't program, as for me, I'm a relatively slow typer and I make typos far too often. I know this can be improved some, but I'm not really programmer material. (although I am learning C++, just for comprehension)

[Gohan]

I can understand that people should not come here asking people to do all the work, however there are a lot of people who have gotten the "do it yourself" reply when they've done almost all the work themselves. I think Eclipse needs to give people more credit before they say "Do it yourself"

[DJMaxus]

The reason most of the replies are "do it yourself" is because most people ask things like, "I need someone to make blah blah blah for me. I will make you GM." or "Is it possible to do XYZ? If so can someone do it?" A programmer is more inclined to help if someone has provided a bit of information about their game and what they would like done, not just asking for vague requests.

A lot of people ask for features, having not even tried to look through their source. People would be surprised what they'll learn just by looking through their code at how things work. Most of programming is just thought process anyway.

[MarBos]

The problem is not really people who don't want to help / share. The problem is people who want to build a game but have no resources / knowledge or a "team". You are right if you say there are different types of people like Game Designers, Programmers and artist - and you will need all three of them - or you won't be able to create a game (except you can do everything yourself or have the money to pay people).

Creating a game is like real life… If your car is broken and you cannot repair it you either need to learn how to fix it or pay someone who knows how to fix it. Try going to a car repair shop and tell the guy to teach you how to fix your car and you will see what he will say. If you tell him that "we would still be cavemen", he will just think that you are crazy :) The guy at the repair shop had to learn everything himself and either paid money or time to learn things, so he is not giving you his time at no cost - nor will he fix your car for free.

The thing is: Today we are able to learn from sources like books, the internet or tutorials, so if you really want to learn something, you can learn it without any issue. Once you have learned, you will be able to ask more educated questions and people will help you, because they see that you ar least try to understand.

That said, just because a programmer, arist or game dev says "do it yourself", it doesn't mean he / she is rude or doesn't care. It just means that they have been bugged by so many people who always ask the same questions (which were probably answered a hundred times), that they gave up trying.

Conclusion: Try to learn things and do your research before asking questions and you will most likely get an answer.

Hope this helps :)

[lollicat]

@DJMaxus:

> The reason most of the replies are "do it yourself" is because most people ask things like, "I need someone to make blah blah blah for me. I will make you GM."

This is true, and the biggest part is that no one cares about being GM in these games, because everyone can.

[Guest]

I started out at #1, just a kid with an idea. Or five.

Then, after being with Eclipse for a year or so, I slowly got into Pixelling, and now i'm about 70% ready to take on position #3, which I do anyway.

Soon after, I'll have to force myself to do position #2, which I can only do the GUI with right now, but I've attempted it in the past and failed horrible every time - with guidance *and* tutorials.

[azure]

I'm with Projear. I've been on gfx for a while, and I've gotten pretty good. If you show an interest and know how to approach people you'll get help.

[Myron]

In my opinion, anyone who needs help with Programming should at least learn the basics of that Programming language he needs help with, so they can learn something from it and get the idea how the code works.

Because what good will it be, getting a code you don't even understand? Then you'll add someone else's code to your game as a Feature and if people want more, are you going to tell them: 'Well, so do I but we'll have to wait till someone shares the code of his Feature with the community, before I can add it.'?

If your dedicated to your game, stand up and sit down, because your lazy ass has been stuck to that chair far too long, find yourself some tutorials and learn them, and if you get a code and you'll be like: 'Wow I get how this works, this is really interesting.' Well then, your on your way but if you don't even bother to understand the code or just find the code boring, that's all right then it will be your problem later.

[Robin]

Eclipse (at least Origins) doesn't require you to be a programmer.

All you need is access to the IDE.

Editing a few things in the source code _doesn't_ make you a programmer.

[Guest]

However, adding a big chunk of code is, right? You need to know how to program to program in a… program?

[Robin]

No. Programming is creating a program. Copy and pasting something into your source or changing a few constants is not programming.

If you're using anything open-source, you should learn how to properly compile a project and debug it.

[Kusy]

ITC, as you mentioned before, you should stop posting while high. You make no sense - society works like that, one person can do something better than others but he can't do something else… he finds someone who can do it well, but is not that good in the first person's domain.

Graphics Desingers don't learn to program games on their own, they make a portfolio, they show examples and find people who can program games but can't desing graphics on their own. If there was an oportunity to work on a game with someone who actualy can work on them - like let's say Robin or Godlord or whoever can do shit, I sure would jump on it if I had time - but I don't have it and even if I have there are other things I want to do with my free time.

And going back to the "do it yourself"... yes - DO IT YOURSELF as long as you have nothing to make it worth my while, because life is not fucking charity.

[Robin]

True, but indy game development is a bit different. You should learn the basics of all the skills, then choose one to specialise in.

Plus, there's the obvious issue here that far too many people come to Eclipse without knowing how to upload a damn image to the internet.

You can't make a game when all you know how to do is make items, and you can't expect to run a team of people to make a game _for_ you whilst you sit back and 'manage the project'.

Learn the basics of every field in game development. If you're using Eclipse, you _need_ to know how to compile the project properly, how to run it properly (Ctrl & F5 is the proper way.) and how to change a few constant values.

It's actually very easy to edit Origins. What you need to learn is the layout of the program and where everything is. This isn't programming, it's basic file navigation.

[azure]

I agree with Robin. You should learn the basics of each aspect and then stick to what you have a knack for. This is one of the few times when self promotion comes into play. Present yourself well and people will at least offer advice if they won't out right help you.

[gamesucker]

Just remember this is not _me_ asking for help, so don't target it at me.

@ Robin I'm talking about things like say pets, witch I'm pretty sure takes more than changing a fev values.

[Kusy]

@Azure:

> This is one of the few times when self promotion comes into play.

Few times? Pfff… you can base your entire life on self promotion.

[renzo]

Anyone that says "Do it yourself." in a Request board is a moron.

Yes, i can understand why learning all this stuff is good for you, but if someone has a topic in the Request Resources board either post the resource or don't post at all.

[Ruins of Hell]

There's no Source Code Request board. A lot of the request resources can be answered with Google.