Java vs. .NET

[Helladen]

We all know Java has had its last legs. With .NET being cross-platform and now Apple's new programming language Swift also being cross-platform. The two tech giants are going to just demolish Oracle as a side note and just a opinion.. ;)

The gaming industry is not ruined by mobile games. It is ruined by terrible game designers trying to pocket the normal person who don't like videogames. They play videogames to kill time when they are on break at work, at parties, and other aspects of life where social media doesn't fill the time kill moment.

Basically, what game designers who have this mentality need to understand, is that you need to realize this niche of people. Hardcore videogame players do not like mobile games and likely never will. Even if you make an awesome game for mobile, they like controllers/physical parts to interact with. These "gamers" are living in the golden age of gaming and gaming has long passed that. The gaming industry as a whole is about to have a giant change in the next 5 to 10 years (next console generation). We're going to go to streaming and eventually touch screen will be the norm. Games will still come out that use keyboard/mice/controller, but really, there will be multiple ways to interact with games in the future. It won't be standardized to really use one form or another to play a videogame. Videogames do not have to meet this golden age definition. I am personally a fan of the golden age of videogames, where games were tough and had the tutorials built in to the levels, because people were treated as humans and not idiots. Although, it is likely we will ever go back to this time again.

Honestly, if you were born later, you would hold a very different opinion about videogames. It is the human bias. You can never say your opinion is better than anyone elses'. Humans like it easy. Those who grew up playing videogames in the golden age will like games to have the same effect as they grew up playing, but are these games truly better? I don't think so. Our definitions change from each generation.

[Sekaru]

@'YourBestNightmare':

> @'Sekaru':
>
> > LibGDX is cool but it doesn't have anything that I want that I couldn't add myself. If you think the fact that it supports two platforms that are slowly destroying the industry is a worthwhile feature then you need to re-evaluate.
>
> Maybe they are destroying the industry, but even most bullshit game can make you a lot of money there, because iOS and Android are full of kids who plays bullshit games and what are "borrowing" their parent´s credit card just to buy another bullshit game.

I don't need easy money from shitty games. Anyone who does isn't a real developer in my eyes.

@'Helladen':

> We all know Java has had its last legs. With .NET being cross-platform and now Apple's new programming language Swift also being cross-platform. The two tech giants are going to just demolish Oracle as a side note and just a opinion.. ;)
>
> The gaming industry is not ruined by mobile games. It is ruined by terrible game designers trying to pocket the normal person who don't like videogames. They play videogames to kill time when they are on break at work, at parties, and other aspects of life where social media doesn't fill the time kill moment.
>
> Basically, what game designers who have this mentality need to understand, is that you need to realize this niche of people. Hardcore videogame players do not like mobile games and likely never will. Even if you make an awesome game for mobile, they like controllers/physical parts to interact with. These "gamers" are living in the golden age of gaming and gaming has long passed that. The gaming industry as a whole is about to have a giant change in the next 5 to 10 years (next console generation). We're going to go to streaming and eventually touch screen will be the norm. Games will still come out that use keyboard/mice/controller, but really, there will be multiple ways to interact with games in the future. It won't be standardized to really use one form or another to play a videogame. Videogames do not have to meet this golden age definition. I am personally a fan of the golden age of videogames, where games were tough and had the tutorials built in to the levels, because people were treated as humans and not idiots. Although, it is likely we will ever go back to this time again.
>
> Honestly, if you were born later, you would hold a very different opinion about videogames. It is the human bias. You can never say your opinion is better than anyone elses'. Humans like it easy. Those who grew up playing videogames in the golden age will like games to have the same effect as they grew up playing, but are these games truly better? I don't think so. Our definitions change from each generation.

Of course Java is shitty but its by no means on its last legs. When .net developers start getting paid as much as Java developers, give me a shout. If you use Swift you should honestly just kill yourself, it'd be a lot less painful. Tbh I cba to read your paragraph on how you justify making a Flappy Bird clone so I won't.

[Helladen]

@'Sekaru':

> Of course Java is shitty but its by no means on its last legs. When .net developers start getting paid as much as Java developers, give me a shout. If you use Swift you should honestly just kill yourself, it'd be a lot less painful. Tbh I cba to read your paragraph on how you justify making a Flappy Bird clone so I won't.

I don't either. Lazy Rocket was a mobile game test. I never distributed a game like that before and wanted the experience. Rory was the one to do it, I just followed in his footsteps and learned from him. It really is for experience and not cash. That game made absolutely nothing. It costed more to make it than we got, we actually lost money making that game, but we did get business from it from commissions. I don't want to go on to debate about your opinions, but Swift has potential to be a good programming language since it works well on iOS, which in my honest opinion is the only platform to distribute your games on. Android is flooded and people don't pay for good games. Swift is open-source and new as well - as well as .NET. Both are great languages, Microsoft is king of programming languages and Apple copied them.

http://swiftlang.eu/

.NET programmers get paid a lot. Visual Basic 6 programmers get paid a lot. You know why? Microsoft is the king of business. Everyone uses old apps that were written in the Visual Basic 6 days and most of them, don't want to upgrade. They just want improvements made to them. I work at Wal-mart and guess what, every computer is Windows. The freaking self-checkout is Windows. I seen an error on it one day while I was working. Every business uses IBM and Windows. Java is nowhere to be seen.

[Sekaru]

> works well on iOS, which in my honest opinion is the only platform to distribute your games on

do I actually need to comment on how… I don't actually even know if there's a word to describe how stupid that statement is.

> Swift is open-source and new as well - as well as .NET

yes because they were the first open source languages.

> Microsoft is king of programming languages as well and Apple copied them

I really need to get a thesaurus for every idiotic statement you make.

Can you stop trying to argue with me? Everyone knows you're going to eventually get offended, cry in the admin chat for help and someone's gonna come to your rescue. You're an idiot who's never made a real game and never will. You understand as much about the game industry as I understand about the fruit industry.

[Helladen]

We're talking about mobile games here. iOS vs. Android, iOS is more profitable. You get more installs with Android, but ad revenue is very low percent compared to purchasing an app. .NET recently went open-source from being proprietary and also running on all major PC platforms. I wasn't stating it was the first open-source platform. You are pulling words out of your ass like you always do when you don't try to understand other people's point of view, you put your own viewpoint on them and force it your way. Then you change your avatar picture or something else to try to upset the poster. This is how Robin used to treat me, too. It just shows who is right and who is wrong in the conversation. The person who knows they are right, doesn't resort to those behaviors, deep down they know they are wrong.

Microsoft has the biggest marketshare. C/C++ are low-level programming languages, but when it comes to fast programming: .NET, Java, and a few others are in that space. Visual Basic 6 back in the day was king. This is why so many people refuse to move on, they liked the simplicity of it.

[Sekaru]

It's funny cause all the people who are good at what they do look down on you.

Anyone who bases their opinion of what programming language to use based on what's popular/what's cool at the time is gonna have a hell of a good time when they realise it's not the language for them. Tip from an actual game developer: use whatever suits your needs for your game.

It's funny cause everyone's seen the little snippets of you crying in the admin chat now, having your little tantrums, begging for help. It's alright Seth, sometimes you just need help in life.

[Helladen]

Maybe? I never claimed to be god status. I am a human just like you. I don't go around making fun of you though, I give you that respect even though you really don't deserve it from me. I was just defending my point of view, since you always got to throw up the past. The past is gone, the past is no more. Stop living in the past.

[Sekaru]

You're still using VB6.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE

Good argument. Better luck next time Seth. You may proceed to nuke the thread to maintain censorship, Eclipse staff.

[Helladen]

@'Sekaru':

> You're still using VB6.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY0WxgSXdEE
>
> Good argument. Better luck next time Seth.

I code in .NET actually. I never claimed to be a programmer. I program cause I have to. I do almost every skill in game development at this point. I don't need help from anyone, because I frankly am capable of making a game by myself aside from art, which is why I work with Rory. No one is perfect, you seem to not get it. I am also porting the engine to Unity, but even you would be one to bash me for doing that. You bash everything which is why it is a waste of breathe to even talk to you. I do speak with a lot of certainty and am wrong sometimes like anyone else, but that's not to say that I am always wrong. I am just very confident in my own abilities to finish what I start. My standards and vision are my most important skills, programming and everything else comes second.

[YourBestNightmare]

@'Helladen':

> We all know Java has had its last legs. With .NET being cross-platform and now Apple's new programming language Swift also being cross-platform. The two tech giants are going to just demolish Oracle as a side note and just a opinion.. ;)
>
> The gaming industry is not ruined by mobile games. It is ruined by terrible game designers trying to pocket the normal person who don't like videogames. They play videogames to kill time when they are on break at work, at parties, and other aspects of life where social media doesn't fill the time kill moment.
>
> Basically, what game designers who have this mentality need to understand, is that you need to realize this niche of people. Hardcore videogame players do not like mobile games and likely never will. Even if you make an awesome game for mobile, they like controllers/physical parts to interact with. These "gamers" are living in the golden age of gaming and gaming has long passed that. The gaming industry as a whole is about to have a giant change in the next 5 to 10 years (next console generation). We're going to go to streaming and eventually touch screen will be the norm. Games will still come out that use keyboard/mice/controller, but really, there will be multiple ways to interact with games in the future. It won't be standardized to really use one form or another to play a videogame. Videogames do not have to meet this golden age definition. I am personally a fan of the golden age of videogames, where games were tough and had the tutorials built in to the levels, because people were treated as humans and not idiots. Although, it is likely we will ever go back to this time again.
>
> Honestly, if you were born later, you would hold a very different opinion about videogames. It is the human bias. You can never say your opinion is better than anyone elses'. Humans like it easy. Those who grew up playing videogames in the golden age will like games to have the same effect as they grew up playing, but are these games truly better? I don't think so. Our definitions change from each generation.

You know what makes Java Java? You can develop on Windows, Linux and also on Mac. .NET? Younare forced to use fucking Windows. .NET supports all platforms that Java does + WP (shitty platform anyways). But you are forced to use Xamarin, which is making bussiones on porting shitty .NET things to mobile devices. And there is lack for one unified building tool for .NET, you are again forced to use Visual Studio (which is not fully free again). Also, Java have tons of free open-source libraries (more than .NET), Java is also equally fast (in some cases even faster). So I do not get this boom about .NET. I do not want to be "bound" to Microsoft when making games. No thanks.

[Helladen]

.NET is coming cross-platform soon, plus there are already 3rd party libraries like Mono that allow cross-platform easily. Java IDE's suck hard. Visual Studio is free for the community edition which has all the features any normal developer would need. I am not rooting that language, but I do give it credit where it is due. It is made for easily deployment and development. Java is excellent at server infrastructures and backends, plus it performs good for devices such as on Android. .NET is good for the tools it provides, it makes programming really speedy. For quick programming there's nothing better out there.

[YourBestNightmare]

@'Helladen':

> .NET is coming cross-platform soon, plus there are already 3rd party libraries like Mono that allow cross-platform easily. Java IDE's suck hard. Visual Studio is free for the community edition which has all the features any normal developer would need. I am not rooting that language, but I do give it credit where it is due. It is made for easily deployment and development. Java is excellent at server infrastructures and backends, plus it performs good for devices such as on Android. .NET is good for the tools it provides, it makes programming really speedy. For quick programming there's nothing better out there.

Yep, third-party. That is what it is. Give me one CLI tool, that can compile .NET solutions under all platforms (Windows, Mac, Linux). And Java IDE sucks? Which one? You can choose from atleast 4\. And they are all less resource hungry than Visual Studii, what iw only choice for .NET projects. See what I am telling you? With .NET you have no choice but to use Microsoft products (and MonoDevelop is bugged).

From your arguments I can see that you have very limited knowledge about both .NET and Java. I am not saying that Java is perfect but for now it is still a lot better choice for building cross-platform software. If I would ever want to make something only for Windows, I would choose .NET and C#. Until Microsoft will do something about all that bound-to-Microsoft shit, I will stick to Java. They are maybe making .NET open-source, but Java is open source from beggining (see OpenJDK) and it is more community-based than Microsoft dictatorship over all .NET technologies.

[Helladen]

.NET runs on Mac and Linux or soon anyway… They got the previews out already for it. What are you talking about? .NET copied Java. Visual Studio Code just came out which is way less resource hungry anyway. All IDEs in Java are not very clean and responsive.

[YourBestNightmare]

@'Helladen':

> .NET runs on Mac and Linux or soon anyway… They got the previews out already for it. What are you talking about? .NET copied Java. Visual Studio Code just came out which is way less resource hungry anyway. All IDEs in Java are not very clean and responsive.

I do not think so. On my PC, I can start both Eclipse and NetBeans in less than 5 seconds, but Visual Studio takes almost 30 seconds to load. And it lags a lot. Yes, my PC is not the best one, but Java IDEs are running there without any problems. Anyways, I am not using IDEs at all right now. That is why I am telling you that for .NET it is hard to make cross-platform build automation command line tool. To get close to it, you need to install entire MonoDevelop IDE on Linux just to get nicer build tool. .NET runs on Mac and Linux already with Mono and I still do not like it.

[Sekaru]

@'Helladen':

> All IDEs in Java are not very clean and responsive.

Just coming back to laugh at yet another ignorant (and or stupid) statement. Visual Studio is one of the most bloated and messy IDEs out there. On the other hand, you don't even need to install Eclipse.

And you wonder why people look down on you lol. Do some research.

[Matt]

I'm nowhere near a professional programmer, and I'm not trying to come off as one. I'm not vastly experienced in programming, or even hardware for that matter. But, I know at least the basics. Although I do primarily use C# and have somewhat of a bias to it, I'd just like to recite something I read a while back about the whole debate.

You'll find arguments on both sides both for and against C# and Java, as well as Eclipse and Visual Studio. Many of which, I'd like to think are valid. But if you cast those aside and solely regard one important variable which is development speed, I'd like to think that C# and VS have the upper hand. C#, Visual Studio, and .Net are all produced and maintained by Microsoft. Eclipse exists as a byproduct of Java, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, But Visual Studio, .Net, and C# exist in a trinity force which were all built to complement each other.

[Marsh]

You guys are passionate about your programming languages and ides. Maybe put some of that passion into researching your statements.

[YourBestNightmare]

@'Marsh':

> You guys are passionate about your programming languages and ides. Maybe put some of that passion into researching your statements.

Everything I am saying is from my personal experience. I really wanted to move my entire Java project to .NET, I spent more than 10 hours (at once, without any break) trying just to get my cross-platform CLI ported to .NET and it's command line build tools. Why I wanted to do this? Because one feature that I really like about .NET are P/Invokes which are superior to JNI (Java Native Interface) in performance.

@'Sigridunset':

> I'm nowhere near a professional programmer, and I'm not trying to come off as one. I'm not vastly experienced in programming, or even hardware for that matter. But, I know at least the basics. Although I do primarily use C# and have somewhat of a bias to it, I'd just like to recite something I read a while back about the whole debate.
>
> You'll find arguments on both sides both for and against C# and Java, as well as Eclipse and Visual Studio. Many of which, I'd like to think are valid. But if you cast those aside and solely regard one important variable which is development speed, I'd like to think that C# and VS have the upper hand. C#, Visual Studio, and .Net are all produced and maintained by Microsoft. Eclipse exists as a byproduct of Java, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, But Visual Studio, .Net, and C# exist in a trinity force which were all built to complement each other.

Yes, using IDE with .NET is easier, but all most of my points against .NET was it's automated building and command-line tools.

[Helladen]

@'Sekaru':

> Just coming back to laugh at yet another ignorant (and or stupid) statement. Visual Studio is one of the most bloated and messy IDEs out there. On the other hand, you don't even need to install Eclipse.
>
> And you wonder why people look down on you lol. Do some research.

Visual Studio may be bloated and slow at loading, but if you keep it minimized and have a lot of RAM, it is no problem. Obviously, there are programmers out there better than both you and I, they choose .NET over Java. I know several programmers personally that use .NET and C/C++ for low-level functions. Obviously, calling names just shows you how much you care about the subject, and if it continues, will result in a ban. I have used Eclipse and did some programming in Java for a little bit. Everyone has an opinion on what's the best. You act like your opinion is fact, yet you cry the loudest when someone else speaks their opinion.

[SkywardRiver]

LOL Seth is all of a sudden a "poor guy" because he can't argue well and then cries to admins…

My goodness. Eclipse...

[Sekaru]

Do those programmers also laugh at you?

You called me a dimwit and you insulted my ability to read. I was actually born in Romania and never had access to education so honestly that's pretty hurtful.

P.S. Can this topic be renamed to "Seth has no clue about the game industry but will proceed to argue with an actual developer with actual experience and actual games"?