The Pros and Cons of Eclipse

[Rob Janes]

Unless an installer registers a 32 bit ActiveX control with the WoW regsvr32 function, the application will not run successfully.  The Firefox installer does this automatically, if you install a 32 bit version on a 64 bit operating system, same goes for any commerical software.  Running as an Administrator and in XPSP3 compatibility will indeed resolve some issues however it's during the installation that it needs to be configured correctly.  Like you, I have no issues running VB on Win7x64\.

However (without installing any 3rd party Libraries - ie Eclipse Libraries, if you want to install a clean build of VB6 on Windows 7, and then use a custom component, example mscomctl32.ocx, it will not work unless you manually register mscomctl32.ocx through SysWoW64, because mscomctl32.ocx is a 32bit file that will not properly register during the installation as the VB6 installer will not utilize WoW regsvr32.  It's just a pain in the ass, this has nothing to do with Eclipse at this point, it's merely a known issue with VB6 on Windows 7 64 bit, and a work around to get custom components working.  I'm presuming whatever tool you used to create the Eclipse Library installer, automatically registers the ActiveX controls as a Win32 control; I know ClickTeam's Install Creator has the functionality build in to do so.

As for VB6 being taught in school.  It's just a matter of something being so 'past it's prime' that there are much 'better' technologies with just an easy learning curve that will be far better suited for new developers.  It's like if high-schools still used an abacus to do math, rather than a calculator.

[Robin]

@SamuGames:

> -snip-

I honestly don't understand what point you're trying to make. Having the library files in a separate installation allows me to ship Origins as a stand-alone application and not force people to re-install the library files constantly.

They're not a '3rd party' tool, they're part of the core Origins setup. You don't need these to run VB6 but you do need them to run the Origins source code in VB6.

If you want I'll offer a separate download which has everything in a single installation file and force you to go through the arduous process of sorting all that out. Just because it's suitable for software like a web browser doesn't mean it's suitable for a small ORPG creator which runs stand-alone.

The library files aren't needed to use VB6 just like the libraries of C++ and Java aren't required to use the language. They're required to work with projects which use said libraries.

@SamuGames:

> As for VB6 being taught in school.  It's just a matter of something being so 'past it's prime' that there are much 'better' technologies with just an easy learning curve that will be far better suited for new developers.  It's like if high-schools still used an abacus to do math, rather than a calculator.

How is it past it's prime? I honestly don't understand what you're using to judge the usefulness of this software. Just because Microsoft have stopped offering support for it doesn't mean it's past it's prime or that it's not as good as it once was - they're just trying to force people to move on to their new stuff so they can make more money. It's what they've always done.

As for your abacus and calculator analogy, it's ultimately flawed by the fact that .NET is not an improvement over VB6\. A better analogy would be using a scientific calculator instead of a simple one. Just because it can do more and it's flashier doesn't mean it's better.

You mentioned that Torque is better for making a game. If it is then go use it. I'm a single person who's doing everything on this project. I simple don't have the time to do everything that expensive commercial software does. Nor would I want to, actually. Origins serves a very specific purpose. Torque doesn't. Hell, Origins isn't really an 'engine' in the normal sense of the word. It's a blank open-source game which you can modify to create your own.

If you cut out all the crap from your post then it comes down to three points; You don't like the language my software is programmed in, you don't like my choice of graphics engine and you don't like me.

Seems fairly obvious to me that if you think you can make a better game in Torque then you should go use it. I'm not going to lose sleep over someone using software other than my own. Origins isn't developed to please everyone, it's developed to please those who want to make a nice little ORPG without having to spend months of development time in large commercial software. It's people like this which give me the feedback and support I need to develop the software. I'm not interested in re-designing my software to be a generic alternative to commercial engines like Torque.

[Rob Janes]

1) You're correct, having a single download that includes engine + runtimes can ultimately be tedius, it'd be better for the user to release their game with the runtimes included.

2) The .NET framework as a whole is a vast improvement, but admittedly, VB6 is much better than VB.NET, again, VB.NET is the red-headed step-child of Microsoft, in reality, VB should just 'go the way of ol' yeller' in the near future.  VB6 is great for what it's capable of, but in a growing market, it's offering less and less in the way of 'variety'. The DHTML pack of VB6 is pretty much useless now, for example.  For things such as Eclipse though; I agree, it fits the bill nicely.  I'm not faulting VB6, nor am I saying it's 'crap'. I'm simply stating it's old.  But for a 'free' engine by a single developer.  I guess I should hold my tongue in regards to what you choose to use to create your engine or canvas.  If it's what you're comfortable with, why change. ;)

3) I didn't say Torque was better, was merely using it as an example of other engines capable of the same outcome, for a cheaper price (Unless pirated copies of VB6 are involved - in which case, it's free, but I'd hate to see the legal ramifications if something profitable was released and Microsoft caught wind and were bothered to do something about it)

4)  You're totally skipping over the "Pros" and only focusing on my Cons.  Just because the language is dated, doesn't mean I don't like the engine, I look forward to JAVA work, again it was just an observation of an old language, nothing more.  As for graphics engine, DirectX7 is indeed very dated, no doubt there, but it comes down to what you are comfortable with, it is your engine and thats your choice to make.

5) It's not that I don't like you, you just come off as an 'ass' to a lot of people if they don't see something your way, or they ask a very novice question.  Sure, you probably hear the same question a lot, and yes, you are the only developer of the engine, but for the sake of the community, a little kindness goes a long way. 

As far as I'm concerned, Eclipse is still A+ material, and I'd recommend it to people looking to make their own small online community, the point of the post wasn't to turn into a verbal debate over engines or languages.  At the end of the day, it's still your engine.

[Robin]

@SamuGames:

> 3) I didn't say Torque was better, was merely using it as an example of other engines capable of the same outcome, for a cheaper price (Unless pirated copies of VB6 are involved - in which case, it's free, but I'd hate to see the legal ramifications if something profitable was released and Microsoft caught wind and were bothered to do something about it)

Origins is free and open-source, Torque isn't. How you get VB6 is your own business. Personally I've seen dozens of copies around the local carboot sales for £5 or less. Even if it's just using it as an example they're simply different software made for different things.

@SamuGames:

> 4)  You're totally skipping over the "Pros" and only focusing on my Cons.  Just because the language is dated, doesn't mean I don't like the engine, I look forward to JAVA work, again it was just an observation of an old language, nothing more.  As for graphics engine, DirectX7 is indeed very dated, no doubt there, but it comes down to what you are comfortable with, it is your engine and thats your choice to make.

I skipped over the pros because there's nothing to discuss with them. ;)

The argument that the language and graphics engine are outdated requires there to be a newer language and graphics library to supersede the old one. Visual Basic 6.0 is the last true Visual Basic. VB.NET is just C# with the BASIC syntax. None of the subsequent releases of DirectX supports DirectDraw which allows for the dynamic graphics handlers which Origins uses. They may be _dated_ but they're not _outdated._ If I wanted to release a D3D version of Origins I could do so within an hour, but it doesn't offer the amount of flexibility which people have come to expect from my engine.

You're perfectly free to change the graphics engine if you want, however. It's incredibly modular and personally I've got the porting over to D3D8 down to a 20 minute job.

@SamuGames:

> 5) It's not that I don't like you, you just come off as an 'ass' to a lot of people if they don't see something your way, or they ask a very novice question.  Sure, you probably hear the same question a lot, and yes, you are the only developer of the engine, but for the sake of the community, a little kindness goes a long way.

You're attributing my abruptness to people being a novice or having a different view from me - That isn't true. If my post is curt it's because; **1.** Their question is in the FAQ, the bright green topic stickied at the top of the Q&A section which is linked to from the download page. **2.** Someone's basing their opinion on something other than fact and decide to post bigotted ad hominem arguments instead of actually learning. **3.** They don't want help, they want someone to do everything for them.

People also take my posts far too seriously. People have told me it's to do with the way I type and the way the character in my avatar looks. Just because I'm writing properly and my avatar looks serious doesn't mean I'm worked up or actually bothered about the content of the thread. I'll point out once again I'm from Yorkshire. My sense of humour is very British in the first place - ironic, cynical and very deprecating. I've found that other people, especially Americans, simply don't understand it and take it as an insult. I'm also a very critical person. If I think something is bad then I'll say it's bad. I'm not a hypocrite who runs around thinking my own work is God's gift to earth. I'm my own worst critic.

@SamuGames:

> As far as I'm concerned, Eclipse is still A+ material, and I'd recommend it to people looking to make their own small online community, the point of the post wasn't to turn into a verbal debate over engines or languages.  At the end of the day, it's still your engine.

That's all very well but if I were to go out of my way to sort out the things you listed as cons then I'd need to step down as developer, cut off all support for the software, leave the community then have someone else come along and re-program the engine in .NET using D3D9\. xD

[Guest]

@SamuGames:

> + Poor Customer Service - (Mainly the lead developer having a poor attitude toward people who are unfamiliar with the engine, just learning, or seeking advice)

Well, we all know Robin is a cold, cruel bastard but you really can't say he has a poor attitude. Look through the source questions board, a lot of the time he gives good advice and helps people out, it's just that some people think it's like the Scripting Questions board where you can request features and that probably winds him up. Also, throughout the source his commented lines are quite helpful in working out what stuff does.

[VitinhooxD]

@Sekaru:

> Well, we all know Robin is a cold, cruel bastard but you really can't say he has a poor attitude. Look through the source questions board, a lot of the time he gives good advice and helps people out, it's just that some people think it's like the Scripting Questions board where you can request features and that probably winds him up. Also, throughout the source his commented lines are quite helpful in working out what stuff does.

^

[ddunit]

Honestly, the conversation is really between two people now. Why is this thread still alive at all?

[Rob Janes]

It wasnt until you just brought it back ;)

[Rob Janes]

PS: After being here a while, I can see Robin's frustration 99% of the time. Heh.

[Robin]

@DDunit:

> Honestly, the conversation is really between two people now. Why is this thread still alive at all?

It's not. It's a week old and you bumped it. Faggot.

[Rob Janes]

@Robin:

> It's not. It's a week old and you bumped it. Faggot.

I LOLed.