iSnow

Guess so Richy, hit up Tinychat I guess. I really hope this doesn't happen again, and if it does let it not come out of the mouth of an administrator and a few others who have other standpoints completely on Eclipse's community, let's keep it minor and non-serious. Were of all ages here on Eclipse, so we should at least push the age factor aside and be a bit mature.

> So, should we just change the subject…I think it's pretty clear to us about what needs to be done and what role we did or didn't play in this whole situation...I think we should start discussing ideas.. I actually agree. Idea, Not to come at JC or any developer, but a dev blog or something as a section of Eclipse news would be nice. That and perhaps some new tutorials on things in the wiki, but regarding how to actually prepare a project that can be accepted on the boards, just saying. I keep seeing people with problems over crap projects on the board.

> Which is something you didn't have to do, there's no need for more sideline moderators or should I say mini mods, sure you're trying to jump in and supposedly help which would make you look cool, but when does it ever really stop the argument…in the end you're just getting yourself involved in something in which you don't even know about...not trying to come at you sideways...just pointing out the facts as I see them. After all just because you sideline moderate, doesn't mean they'll want to put you onto the staff team anymore than they would a person who keeps to them self. > > What I really mean to say is that it could have added on to the argument rather than help it, nothing less and nothing more. Point and case, we need a no nonsense Eclipse administration from here on and let those in the seat of moderation be trusted and also not given exceptions. I'm not flaunting myself to be in power because that's not my choice, it's the choice of people who can trust me and have taken the time to know I can handle it. Let's just keep it clean when we have problems and brush off the conflicts we have basically from here on.

JC, I know there have been some comments made here about the engine but we should be over that, it was minor anyway. There are problems with the community and all that needs to be done is to take what he have said here into consider by Marshy Dearest, let him do what he will because he has run this for six years and he can do it again, and then promptly plop this into the hall of shame once we have the action taken and all is said and done.

> Thats also a good point. Due to the lack of active mods/admins a lot of stuff goes unpunished and is missed or forgotten about or looked over but then randomly rules will get enforced and sometimes enforced hard and then again stuff gets missed right after. > > Lack of consistency with the moderation is a big problem I've seen since I've been on these forums. +1\. I remember Spork being very active but he didn't take his role very seriously around the end of his administrator period, so if we can get the few left who know what they are doing with some say in moderation we could solve the problem. Admiral, SJR and Robin along with the rest had power because they all believed in no nonsense.

> I said no bias based judgement meaning no matter if it's your friend, staff, or a normal member…it should apply to everyone. I guess to clear it up I'll help rephrase it. If your in power but the community thinks your doing wrong, your power or preference by others should not apply like it doesn't for a regular member and proper action should be taken as if you were a normal member.

Bud, sure, were all a bit guilty here, I probably am. But hey, that still leaves the fact that we should all learn something from this.

> I see your points, and I don't think they're particularly wrong - I just feel like bouncing back projects, even giving them advice, isn't exactly giving them a chance. What if something denied would have actually rapidly improved or became more popular than expected once put through the scrutiny of their own peers? Without some pressure, varied criticism and expectations of others people wont learn the crucial things needed to succeed. > > I also wonder where it would stop, the problem with control is it gets out of hand, if you tighten the collar in one place inevitably it will begin to tighten in others due to trying to keep a handle on control, these arguments and such are unavoidable because we're all people with different ideas and opinions. People just need to buck up and learn to handle petty disputes themselves and if it becomes out of hand that's what the moderators are there for. There will never be an ultimate loving utopia among human beings and trying to control that aspect through quality will only reduce the issues because there's less activity since people are being locked out. > > I don't know if either of us are right and wrong, but I do appreciate you talking it out with me instead of resorting to flaming, thank you for that  Yeah, I do think that control abuse is possible but when I work with my Voltisoft team we all have a say and nobody takes absolute power other than the owner who has the patience to listen to us all and Marshy Dearest can do that and he has shown it several times. And yeah, people need some serious advice sometimes but I've seen so many projects in the game design community where nothing is learned because the author in question can't take advice and I remember a time when I couldn't either but I learned because my projects were not good design choices back then and I revised myself and my choices to become a better thinker. I like this discussion right here, and Eclipse should be a bit more like this.

> That's actually the best idea I've heard…a section where people can legitimately get out their arguing..would definitely keep peace in the shout box and could also be fun. All I know is I want this topic in the Hall of shame no matter the result of it because this was just a mess on everyone's part, no offence to anyone, even I probably acted a bit immature here.

Ertzel has a point, and sure this has been a bit of flaming back and forth but seriously you can't expect much more out of humans when we get names like douchebag and ignorant and what not thrown at eachother. Agreed as well, if your in power, do yourself a favor and step back from taking it seriously where others would.

> I dont want to sound harsh, and maybe i am taking the comments a bit irrationally. But if some of you hate Eclipse that bad, feel free to leave. Amen. Lots of communities have fallen because the people who hated it were too lazy to leave and do what the things they kept complaining about.

> In defence to me doing "Almost Nothing" well that feels like a personal attack to me. I do a lot. You dont see the majority of it becouse it is behind the scenes. I am extremely busy with college right now and building my life into a place where i want it to be. I have poured thousands of dollers into this site and continue to work on it. I am in contact with Magical Aeroplane, Devogen, Socuine, Jeff, and many others to continue site development. I am constantly tweaking settings, graphics. I worked on search engine results for years. Do you see any differance? No. But the truth is work is being done. I dont feel like i should even be defending myself. Its stupid. This site has been running for close to 6 ducking years. I have been paying hosting bills and making sure this site is running successfully. Yes, i get busy. That doesnt mean i dont care about the future of Eclipse. Real life comes into play. I dont think its fair at all to call me out on this bum candy. You shouldn't have to defend yourself on this because Eclipse started with you and everything we've seen so far is under your supervision and you've done a damn fine job at it. Again I don't think the site or the engine or any technical stuff is involved but the problems the community had with eachother is. Let's just end it with a revision of staff between them, no bias intended, pick a few new candidates behind the curtains if you need to, and we all learn a moral lession: It's the internet and you're here for no cost to you, enjoy it.

> The ones that _knew_ what they were doing have long left. They saw what was wrong with the community and moved forward. > > (Robin, SJR, etc.) Completely agree. My opinion though is that those who are put in important roles can sometimes get edgy and egotistical about it. Bud, I'm also on your side of that, if someone can't be professional in their position the others in charge should step back and look at it seriously. I hope we can end this with a few new policies and reviews of what we have.

I'm not twisting your words or anything man, I'm just saying the resolution to this isn't scrapping everything and telling those who have a bit of problems to piss off. I think we just live and learn and go back to our lives.

> I am seeing a lot of truth here. Thanks Sexy Beast for that i agree hole heartedly. I am going to keep the shoutbox disabled for now as i believe that re-adding it at the moment will just continue the flame wars. > > I think whether arguing or not this topic not only bringing a lot of truth but adressing the issues have needed to be talked about for awhile whether we like it or not. Argue, fight, agree, get it out of your systems. I would love to have the community just return to everyone enjoying themselves. I will improve it in anyway i can. Some arguments seem silly to me, others makes sense. As others have stated though. As the owner i am a human. I will have personal opinions and values that may differ from yours. I think we can all get a long and make this site enjoyable for all. I'm with you on that, there are tons of different people in the mix here at Eclipse and if you've got a problem, stand back and realize your staring at a screen. using code you got for no cost to you at all by force, so quit it.

Let's all stop with the engine references. That's irrelevant. Whether or not were using what we have appropriately has nothing to do with the engine but moreso the community's usage of it. Aer, if you want to leave, do it. Those who talk more do less and I'd love to see you go because after that maybe some of us would learn a few lessons and Eclipse might be a bit better. Spork was taken down as an admin after his actions and I'm sure Marshy Dearest and the others learned something whether they realized it or not. Oh, and it's not impossible, there is just enough evidence sitting in our hands to say you've been a very blunt person recently. Vocaloid, your being a bit harsh. Eclipse was doing alright before this, you've just had some beef with others, I know I have and most of us here have.

> The site is clean, intuitive and in relatively good order and the community as a whole appears to have become progressively more wholesome and tolerant of new people. I don't really understand what the fuss is about, these are just my observations from lurking but all of this drama seems to be stemming from a plain conflict of personalities. Anyone in a position of authority are human beings as well, and as such, both sides are prone to disliking each other and unfortunately if there's only arguments and no blatant abuse of power everyone's just going to have to learn to cope with the people who irritate them. I'm sure we all do this on a daily basis, at school, work or at home - it should be relatively easy to tolerate with little effort. > > Maybe I'm missing the nostalgia goggles since I've never really involved myself with Eclipse much outside of lurking, but I've only seen improvements over the course of this year. I'd only suggest continuing to keep things simple, improve, collaborate and continue driving Eclipse on into future generations and have patience and a helping hand ready for the onslaught of newbies improvement will inevitably bring, because let's face it, not all of us will be here forever and somebody needs to keep such a great place thriving and well prepared so it can continue its existence. > > I'd also like to pipe in to say I don't like the sounds of quality controlling the projects section, It's one thing to remove the troll threads but shunning projects that don't live up to some kind of biased standards just restrains growth and doesn't give new people a chance to try and will scare off anyone willing to. The basic information guidelines are enough, and if the game isn't special enough for you just ignore it, people are here trying to learn through the available information and the experience of trying to apply that information. Everyone has to start from somewhere, if their project isn't attractive enough no one will play it and they'll learn something was missing through failure, something that sticks and weeds out the people not willing to improve. You've got some points but let's be honest with ourselves, if we reject a project thread but give them advice, they still learn that A. They didn't follow guidelines and B. whatever we gave them as advice, and honestly this requires a team who can handle advice. Sure, a bad project may be a learning experience but with an internet community it just beings problems and needs revision from the creator instead of some hypocritical internet members. Just saying.

> Also as far as making Eclipse in a new language, it is brought up a lot. Yes we would all love. The cold hard truth is that no one currently possesses the ability. I might be able to create a c++ engine. But i am to busy with college. Even if i i wasnt it would take months. People claim they can make other versions, nothing every comes of it. It is not as simple as simply saying create another engine. Eclipse is a huge engine whether you believe it or not. The amount of work needed is insane. Your right and as I said the engine wouldn't matter if there was some standards left for the community and the development. As for what Death said, yeah, I can't see where the problem is coming from other than someone being a hypocrite to the other and what not. Let's just learn from this, implement some better standards, and review the team and policies. Honestly we weren't talking about the engine, that has no relevance or at least not much more than little. What I want to refer to is the standards we keep up around here.

> jesus christ, i come on here just now and this is what i fuking see….a bunch of morons arguing over something stupid....Sure the community has gone to bum candy but that doesn't mean it's still fun. The creativity thing is just dumbasses complaining about every little thing. just ignore it. The admin abusing..that's something that all the mods and admins need to be fired and get new ones. and Marshy Dearest, if you don't like the bum candy talk about the community, then just delete the shoutbox permanently, problem solved. You guys argue like little kids sometimes and this is one of those times...Grow up, if you don't like it, gtfo. Death and Snow are the only ones that i see who are not acting like 7 year olds. Just stop everyone, it gets very tiring to see a topic flame up about the community... That's a tad blunt, but yeah, we need to not take things so seriously when it comes to some bad names in the shoutbox. We need some higher standards though because the problem and solution can all stem from that. We saw way less problems and less harsh criticism when projects had to be approved with guidelines in place because it kept out most of the problematic arguments.

> At the end of the day, no one appreciates anything and just wants to argue. > > Thanks, > > Magical Aeroplane Point and case, you.

> Continue to prove my points, it's done so well so far. Of course, the ignorant douchebags like you continue to believe you because well, let's face it, everyone wants to be part of something. And if two people are already teaming up against someone, why would they join the side that is allegedly losing? > > So hold on, now I'm wrong because more people think I am wrong than think I am right? This just gets more and more confusing. > > Yeah, I yelled at Death, oh well, get over it. He deserved it. Of course everyone thinks he doesn't, because, well most likely of the above. > > Thanks, > > Magical Aeroplane No, your in the position of Administrator while openly calling others douchebags and ignorant. Come on, do we need to resort to that? Sure, I may have thrown a bad name here and there recently and honestly I don't think I'm right either but when you are in the position your sitting in you need to have a bit of a more professional tone and not let me or the others that aren't anything but regular members sound a lot more mature than you.

> Awsome possum  so far i have had no issues from anyone on this site tho. seriously its actually kinda cool how much the admin actually are willing to hear the communities ideas. ive been on alotta sites where it is hard to even get a mod to listen let alone do anything about a problem or even a suggestion you may have. i kinda think people are forgetting just how good we have it. I do agree on how people are forgetting how good Eclipse is to some people. Were looking at problems over an internet community, and maybe the development of Eclipse is serious business, but at the end of the day were all on the internet and problems can be resolved without it becoming a flurry of accusations and profanity. If were going to argue, again, let's be a little cleaner and a bit more professional. Let Marshy Dearest hear the whole thing, each side make some points and not throw curses across the room.

Except if half the members in question excluding you are all on the same side it doesn't make them ignorant, it makes you against what other people think. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has some beef with you and others here have it worst than I do when it comes to your case. You want to be right? Don't provide the example a good half hour before I decide to bring it in on my side.

> Wait, what? I have Marshy Dearest in my back-pocket? Hardly. In fact, me and Marshy Dearest discussed things before I was even brought on as staff, and the services I provide would not stop if I were to leave because if idiots…no, let me make that more clear, **IGNORANT DOUCHEBAGS** like you. There, that was more specific. > > You say I am the problem and yet you provide no evidence as to how. > > 1) That's hardly how it went down. You left out all of the backstory. But of course, you do this for every argument. (Just wait, I'll prove my point below.) > > 2) Again, you leave out anything that may have happened before that situation, you provide no specifics, and you claim I say things but provide no actual quotes. Instead you go with the "he said she said" situation. > > 3) I corrected myself after that, therefore this would be null and void. > > 4) Again with this? As I explained, it's something that the staff general agrees upon. In fact, Marshy Dearest set the permissions for that, not me. > > 5) How does this have anything to do with anything? First off, it's hardly true. The first part is about 80% true, in that you guys sure do act like you want the authority, with the generalized statements that you seem to think the ideas and opinions you have are superior to the policies in place. > > You don't think I'll quit? You have no idea. I don't give a rats ass what Marshy Dearest says to me, or does for me, I will leave this place if and when I desire. He has nothing to do with this. > > Yes, that's the answer. Carbon copy Soul to the rest of the staff. To hell with individuality, what is the point anyway? > > No admin here has total say so or control. In fact, from what I have seen, any decision that is made by the staff we collaborate with two or three other staff members, and often times other members. > > You want creativity, then talk about how we should moderate every project that is posted. Wait, what? > > Yes, he's obviously pushing problems into the dark. That's his entire goal on this site. /endsarcasm I think the main point of him asking them in PM's, is so they actually get resolved instead of people just bitching about them. (Case and point: This post.) > > Oh yes, I live every day to be a jackass to all of you. That's what I say to myself to wake up in the morning. I wake up and spend hours working on this place so I can say, "Who do I want to be a jackass too today?" You nailed. Congratulations. /endsarcasm > > Thanks, > > Magical Aeroplane Okay, sure, everyone is a bit defensive on things like this. But that right there, that bold text. Really man? Sure it might be a sensitive situation but if were going to disagree do us the favor and keep it clean. It's the internet guys, and I'm not talking here drunk or anything, I'm just not taking your problem seriously because if we all started taking this seriously Eclipse would a wreck.

> I agree with that snow, also JC I don't think this argument was about the engine its self..maybe I'm wrong, but it's not what I thought, however I do agree it gets only as good as we make it. To be honest we do still talk about our daily lives etc…but there's a new generation, things change and bum candy happens..we can no longer keep looking back. It simply isn't what it was years back. I've thought that for a long time, and there a few left who criticize the change and aren't willing to go with it. Of course it isn't what it was a few years, nor should it ever be that way again, were here to move forward not go back in time to be just another indie community, but to be one of the best and seriously the community is having a bit of trouble going with it. This might happen a lot with communities filled with veterans like this one but this was a bit of an outrage because of a message on the shoutbox in complete caps using just profanity blatantly by Aer.