Middleware Engines

[Helladen]

Why making a generic Mirage-based engine is not a good idea in 2016.

A lot of game engines are starting to appeal to the mass market of developers, you got the really good developers using middleware software such as Nez, etc., but an engine like Eclipse, RPG Maker and even Game Maker is really outdated in this day and age. We're really starting to see engines to build up from rather than build down from. It is much slower to use a game engine like Game Maker to make a game, than to code your own game using a middleware software and framework. This is due to the workflow of these game engines being really slow and redundant, they do the job good for newbies, but for pros they do the job slow and terrible.

There's a reason no games were ever really released with success in Eclipse. These game engines appeal to the lower crowd of inexperienced developers. I talk a lot in RPG Maker too about this, the developers aren't good, because they don't test their limits and rely on other people to do the work for them.

Any thoughts to add or disagreements?

[Marsh]

Plenty of successful games have been made with game maker and rpg maker. Honestly I feel like that kind of thinking seems to be from amateurs. The professionals all tend to say pick the tool that works. I have heard game maker being praised in the industry as a great way to bang out mockups. Hotline Miami was made in game maker.

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 It is much slower to use a game engine like Game Maker to make a game, than to code your own game using a middleware software and framework. 
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I would disagree. 

I would say the reason that not many Eclipse games get released (a few games have). Or stick around for awhile is the sole fact that most people doing this are making their first game and kids. Game development is hard.

[Helladen]

Yeah Marsh I mean, the workflow of the development process is pretty good in Eclipse and RPG Maker; although Game Maker is really slow in my honest opinion. The way rooms and sprites are created and organized. The same for Construct 2\. I feel like creating your own workflow and engine using existing technologies is better though as a professional. You shouldn't program it all yourself, but you should use an open-source solution and create your own toolset which fits your game as well as make the client fit exactly what you want your game to be.

[Marsh]

Yea using the middleware is definitely a great option, saves a ton of time and you can get exactly what you want. The upside to engines is that they save tons of time. Though as you said, their is a lot of stuff you wont be using and may slow it down.

[Vince]

It mostly depends on what you are aiming at.

Middleware engines target programmers, instead of writting your own game engine from scratch, you'll have basic set of features such as actors, scenes, resources managing (without having to write your own wrapper for graphics, sounds, networking) …
Otherwise, engines like, for instance Game maker, Godot Engine, Unity, Unreal Engine tend to be more of an IDE for games, emphasis is given to game development not to programming,i.e to Game Designer, Programmer, Graphic Artist...

They do not share the same purpose, it's like comparing a sedan and a race car.

These are tools, workflow mostly depends on user's experience and the scope of the project.

For me, you're a bit confusing, I don't understand your point.

"There's a reason no games were ever really released with success in Eclipse. These game engines appeal to the lower crowd of inexperienced developers."
There isn't one reason, but tons of reasons (a few one) :
-Engine is outdated (Flexibility is close to 0)
-Some dev even experienced one fall in the novice trap of programming a.k.a they only focus on development of game engine features and not on the game dev itself. The result ? A game engine frenquently unfinished (because building a complete/dedicated game engine is really time consumming) and no game done.
-"These game engines appeal to the lower crowd of inexperienced developers" - I agree.
-"Game development is hard. " - Marsh  I agree too.
-ORPG tends to be less attractive nowaday just like MMORPG(Moba are in da place).
-...
-I forgot : Lazy guys

"Why making a generic Mirage-based engine is not a good idea in 2016."
Some devs still use RPG Maker 2003 to build their game, making a generic Mirage-based engine if nicely done could seduce people and result in having developers making good little game.

I can get back to my sentence : " I don't understand your point."
First you spoke about Mirage based engine, then about workflow and productivity which induce to professional dev, then getting back to the failure behind Eclipse Engines(in terms of game released + get success) which induce amateur dev.

Comparing professional approach to the amateur approach is meaningless.
Mirage engines never aimed to allow you to get your project to a professional level.
The main difference between professional and amateur is that professionals (in most of the case) know what are their needs and their constraints and then are able to choose the tools which will fit their workflow the best.

In the "professional world" all these solutions are "good for their purpose" as matter of fact  :
-Valve => Source Engine almost started from scratch (in fact: it's based on Quake engine)
-Mobiles games some use Unity, some use Cocos2D(middleware), some use Unreal Engine.

There isn't a best solution nor a fastest way, it's all up to you.
The questions are more about your skills/experiences, what (software) you're comfortable with, your team(and the skill of your team), your goal, your project....

[Marsh]

A tip ive heard for people trying to pick a engine.

Just start making the game, it doesnt matter. Starting is the most important thing. Unreal, unity, game maker whatever. They will all get the job done.

[Sekiguchi Okitsugu]

I agree. I'm planning my game at the moment and will start picking an engine when I'm done planning.

[Helladen]

Generic game engines like Unity have terrible workflow for 2-D games. You have to spend 100s of dollars to make it worthy workflow. Where using an existing middleware engine with a custom toolset can save 100s of dollars plus have a better workflow.

I honestly feel like this is better in most cases. Game Maker workflow is incredibly slow. I could never deal with the room system. Game Maker is good though for developers, who barely know how to program.