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Why…


Robin
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…are people so offended when I suggest to program something?

I seem to keep getting attacked every time I suggest people learn a bit of programming. Are people that against learning to edit the engine?

It's just the same as people getting attacked for suggesting people try and make their own user interfaces, or writing their own scripts.

So my question;

How the hell do people get so offended by the suggestion of learning some basic programming? xD
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@Magdreamer:

> Because they don't like the fact that they can't, and their skills are limited to using Sadscript and taking premade codes from forums and making a copy & paste game.

that is all true except…
the thing is their skills are not *limited* the people can not be bothered to even try learning, im slowly learning it and can do somethings already, so if they tried they might learn it and make a more unique game, but it seems a lot of people would rather have a game that has basic things rather than some unique features xD so basically ppl are just lazy or cannot do it as magdreamer said and have a go out ya for it o.o then again i suppose every person has his/her own thing the can do with eclipe e.g script or sprite and the rest
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@Don't:

> …are people so offended when I suggest to program something?
>
> I seem to keep getting attacked every time I suggest people learn a bit of programming. Are people that against learning to edit the engine?
>
> It's just the same as people getting attacked for suggesting people try and make their own user interfaces, or writing their own scripts.
>
> So my question;
>
> How the hell do people get so offended by the suggestion of learning some basic programming? xD

well its not so much offended as it is "thanks for pointing out the obvious"

if they wanted to program it, they wouldnt have asked in the first place… -_-

now, if only you could put that great knowledge to use... if only there was a place where eclipsers were actually interested in programming, but still needed some kind of help... someplace in the forums called... oh i dont know... the [Programming Questions board](http://www.touchofdeathforums.com/smf/index.php/board,107.0.html)
then im sure a lot of people would be happy
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That forum is filled with people asking for some old pokemon source, .NET gurus and C++ help.

Besides, I'm mainly basing this question on the amount of people who just had an absolute go at me when I suggested that new members learn a bit of programming.
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Yea, the only time I've ever "went after you" was for the comment you made that Marsh quoted. In it you implied that people are being lazy because they don't learn a programming language. That is harsh, unfair, and inaccurate.

I do understand your frustration however, Robin. The problem is new users expect Eclipse to produce their game in their vision, and are unwilling to adapt their game vision to fit the abilities of the engine they are freely given. So they constantly demand potentially unreasonable modifications or features, without taking the time to even understand what they mean.

They are more being lazy through their inability to analyze their own ideas and understanding of the engine, then they are being lazy for not "programing their own" whatever. For example, I've never once figured on learning VB6\. I'm not going to do it, for one since I'm already the only person creating sprites, tiles, and everything for my own game, I do not have the time to be my own programmer as well. And on top of that, if I were to learn a programming language, it would be one far more versatile (and less obsolete) than VB6.

Not to offend those who are proficient with VB6, but you must remember you have specialized knowledge that can help others, but you can't expect everyone else to acquire that same knowledge–it may not be worth it to them.
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People do not like being told what they can not do. Sure if you can code there is a million more things you can do with the engine. People are different and some people, myself included, have different types of thought processes. I think more in a graphical abstract kind of way which is great for artists. Other people like yourself think in a more structured or ordered way which is ideal for a coder. I also just do not have the time to learn in depth how to code. I can do some very minor things especially when it comes to some of the graphical code changes but I can not and may never be able to deep code in VB6\. The main point is we are all different in how we perceive and create.

One of the great things about Eclipse is that you can create a game without knowing how to program or I never would have tried. Another great thing about Eclipse is that if you look past some peoples BS there are those who like to see new projects and if you prove yourself dedicated a lot of those people are willing to help. I have been with Eclipse about a year now and only now have decided that it is time for me to give more of myself to the community that helped me get my start in game development. The Eclipse Community deserves that from me.

Robin, not everyone can program or has the resources to program. If they get into the engine to the point that they need coding help then thats where your greatest contributions could be made. From what I have seen you appear to really be a good programmer. I for one hope to see Eclipse benefit from this.  :cool:
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> Not to offend those who are proficient with VB6, but you must remember you have specialized knowledge that can help others, but you can't expect everyone else to acquire that same knowledge–it may not be worth it to them.

It's like me saying: "You should learn C++ instead of being lazy and using the software of others." when somebody asks: "Is there a new version of this updater out?".

I have to accept this a lot and I do accept this. I don't expect anybody to know a whole bunch of stuff about mathematics, although I like to talk a lot about it, next to using it a lot.

Robin, seriously, wouldn't you freak out if I said: "Go learn to model some space ships first, instead of downloading them all from the internet, you lazy boy."

Regards,
  Asagndarg.
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@Anna:

> Yea, the only time I've ever "went after you" was for the comment you made that Marsh quoted. In it you implied that people are being lazy because they don't learn a programming language. That is harsh, unfair, and inaccurate.
>
> I do understand your frustration however, Robin. The problem is new users expect Eclipse to produce their game in their vision, and are unwilling to adapt their game vision to fit the abilities of the engine they are freely given. So they constantly demand potentially unreasonable modifications or features, without taking the time to even understand what they mean.
>
> They are more being lazy through their inability to analyze their own ideas and understanding of the engine, then they are being lazy for not "programing their own" whatever. For example, I've never once figured on learning VB6\. I'm not going to do it, for one since I'm already the only person creating sprites, tiles, and everything for my own game, I do not have the time to be my own programmer as well. And on top of that, if I were to learn a programming language, it would be one far more versatile (and less obsolete) than VB6.
>
> Not to offend those who are proficient with VB6, but you must remember you have specialized knowledge that can help others, but you can't expect everyone else to acquire that same knowledge–it may not be worth it to them.

I can understand that bit. When I told DrNova to stop being lazy, I was just venting some frustration. I'm also not expecting people to learn to program. What I'm talking about is where new members ask for _opinions_ on what they should learn, and when I say they should learn some basic programming, I get a load of people saying that they shouldn't.

If people don't think programming is required to make a decent project (Which it's not, but it's bloody useful) then that's fine, I just don't get why people are contradicting me and saying that people **shouldn't** learn to program.

As I've said before, I'm not expecting people to make some huge faction system, or create a visual bank. Even though those kinds of things are easy for me, I understand completely that most people don't have the time to learn it for the sake of learning it. I do however think that new members _should_ start to explore the source code more, and I think by doing so people will also start to understand Eclipse's engine a lot more, too.

If you don't want to learn to program, that's fine. I just don't get why you should be adamant about saying that programming _shouldn't_ be used.

@Asagndarg:

> It's like me saying: "You should learn C++ instead of being lazy and using the software of others." when somebody asks: "Is there a new version of this updater out?".
>
> I have to accept this a lot and I do accept this. I don't expect anybody to know a whole bunch of stuff about mathematics, although I like to talk a lot about it, next to using it a lot.
>
> Robin, seriously, wouldn't you freak out if I said: "Go learn to model some space ships first, instead of downloading them all from the internet, you lazy boy."
>
> Regards,
>   Asagndarg.

Read my other posts. I did specify this isn't aimed at anyone in particular, and it's nothing to do with my outburst at DrNova.
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Ok, I understand that, and I've never claimed that people shouldn't learn to program. Even if it isn't VB6, if you want to be a part of software development of any kind–even just a game--you should have a basic fundamental grasp of programming.

I think the main problem, is if you assume it to be a requirement, it might make Eclipse appear less welcoming to new people; and I think of recent times, Eclipse is basically marketted at being an versatile yet accessible tool.
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I was trying to post on this the other day, kept getting blue screen crashes mid typing though(an hour later my computer died completely)

Anyways, I never said you shouldnt learn to code.  Coding is something you should definatly learn to use.

My point I was trying to make, is as advice for new people asking basic questions/and things easily scriptable, telling them to learn coding is poor advice.

Most people know learning VB would greatly enhance their capbilities.  Telling them to learn coding is not news to them (or helpful advice)

If they wanted to learn coding, they would.  Alot of people dont have VB6 to attempt it, alot of people simply arent smart enough to learn it, or just dont get those kind of concepts.

As the Engine Eclipse is, learning coding is not a beginning step for most the people who come here.  It can be an advanced stage for them, though few make it that far.  But it is not and shouldnt be reccomended as one of the first steps.

They know, and will try to learn coding if they can, but when someone asks advice for something, awnsering their question is more helpful then telling them something they are aware of and have the choice to do if they want to.

But as for a peice of advice, it doesnt awnser their questions or help them solve their issues in most cases.
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I just think that some people are made to do certain things. It's not that I don't like or want to learn something. I just can't - I can't focus on one thing too long - some kind of dyslexia and stuff. But I never feel ofended when someone tells me that. I do graphics and I also sometimes coment other's work… usualy not to positive but still.

My point is just that some poeple just CAN'T learn scripting and programing. Just like not all people can draw and do gfx good. Another thing is that most people DEMAND someone else do to something for them... when someone just asks it's ok with me.
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