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Something I've noticed about Eclipse.


lollicat
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Every time a new version is released, the same cycle happens as per the last few years.

First, whoever creates it says that not only is it the better copy (which, well, it generally is), but they also say that you should only use it if you are a good programmer. This happened starting with EE2.7, where as soon as Stable came out, that was the "scripter's copy" and in order to make a good game with it, you "HAD" to edit it with scripting and sourcing. Fast forward a few years and Origins is released. The same thing happens. This copy can only be used to its fullest if you can source. Some people stick to Stable, but after seeing all the great features Origins had to offer, people went to Origins.

Then, a few months ago, Robin said "screw it" and released everything, including CS:DE. Now that _it_ was released, everyone says you have to be an avid programmer or else you will fuck everything up. So either we're all getting to be better programmers, or no one is improving except for the engine dev himself and we're all just trying to glorify ourselves.

Am I the only one that sees this?
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So long as you're actually taking the time to look at what your doing I would say yes, you are all improving as programmers.  But if all you're doing is just copy-pasting everything with no thought to what your doing then no.
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Well the latest thing with CS:DE has a lot of drama behind it hand goes alot deeper then we should go into in this topic =P

BUT, any one can use these things, and if you cant programm, you can bartter/pay for systems, OR you can "hire" a programmer and get one on your dev team.

There are many ways around the barrier that is the ability to program.
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@Lady:

> But do you see what I mean in that every time a new engine is released, it claims to be for only those amazing at programming, then two weeks later everyone is using it. Correct?

Correct.

Most developers would say that they learned how to program though referencing the engine they use–including myself. If you use an engine that encases the most advanced and efficient ways of programming in that language, you will then come out as an amature programmer with an excellent foundation. The more the base product improves coding-wise, the more superior of coders will be seen emerging through natural means.
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It's an interesting observation, but only natural. Slowly the veterans have been getting better, and newbies either have to learn fast or be trampled over for being slow.  I'm assuming this will happen with eclipse C, and then if it continues at the same rate after around three years, eclipse in assembly will be released.

I don't think it even goes as a straight line, slowly increasing by the same amount. I think it's a curve. Eclipse stable was a bit better than evolution, but then origins instantly blew both out of the water. CSDE was released a very short while after EO, and so it was only a bit better, but it changed the old mirage graphics engine. Eclipse C will also be a huge milestone for eclipse, a far bigger increase than ever before.

/end rant
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I agree. And way before that with TE and the first versions of EE. I don't know if the people here changes or improves into better programmers. In fact, i've started learning programming here messing up with EE2.7 script code and then with EO.

The truth is that a lot of people is too lazy/afraid of starting to learn a programming language or messing up with the engine to understand how it works and what is it real potencial. But I should say that since EO release there are more people sourcing due to the fact that scripting has been removed.
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@Lady:

> But do you see what I mean in that every time a new engine is released, it claims to be for only those amazing at programming, then two weeks later everyone is using it. Correct?

When have I ever claimed that? I created Origins because it required _less_ sourcing than the other engines. It was the retarded idiots who didn't know shit about the project who went around claiming you needed to be a programmer to use it. In fact all you need to know is how to install VB6, how to use the IDE and how to re-compile the project. You can change the entire GUI without touching a line of code.

What this all comes down to is your perspective. Before Origins, no one actively using the engine knew how to program. At all. It was just re-hashes of Mirage tutorials and systems which were released years before Eclipse was even opened. The engine was bugged to high-hell, the developers didn't know how to fix the most basic of problems, the users were all thick as bricks and the code was stagnant. Hell, the entire community was stagnant. Stupid people dislike change, and my _God_ did the changes I make cause them to get riled up. I still get people like Greendude complaining about me cutting off support for EE. So it was your perspective that made you believe those projects were acceptable. They weren't. Everyone who was looking in to Eclipse from the outside realised that and this was the reason Eclipse was seen as a forum for idiots by every single other matured community.

You don't need to be a good programmer to use Origins, you need to be a good programmer to programme good systems in to the engine. The same is true of all engines, especially EE and ES. Luckily for me no one was a good programmer, so I could just wipe the slate clean and start again.

None of those other projects let you create a good game. At all. Origins does that. This isn't a case of Origins being replaced by something else because it's a finished project. Origins is, in fact, the first ever completely finished Mirage-based engine. It is completely possible to make a popular and professional game using this software. It just so happens that I'm the only one with the drive and skill to do this.
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> It just so happens that I'm the only one with the drive and skill to do this.

Or just the only one with that level of drive and skill to use this engine… at a certain level of skill and understanding in game-programming you wouldn't use origins but rather try to program your own foundation, fitting your needs.

-seal
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@Sealbreaker:

> Or just the only one with that level of drive and skill to use this engine… at a certain level of skill and understanding in game-programming you wouldn't use origins but rather try to program your own foundation, fitting your needs.
>
> -seal

Yeah, people do that all the time on here. Yet to see a single person release a game made with their custom engine.

All the people who have the skill don't have the drive and all the people who have the drive don't have the skill.

I think the only person who's actually managed to build a working game recently was Lightning, and I'm still waiting for it to be released.
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> I think the only person who's actually managed to build a working game recently was Lightning, and I'm still waiting for it to be released.

well, and soon psithyroi will surely be released. with their awesome engine that nobody has even seen but still is 100% complete, ready for making a game out of it that is SOOOOO different from other sidescrollers (even more since they changed their graphics to look like a bad maple ripoff)! :D

but seriously, you're right about the skill/drive-theory… I guess I don't have too much of that drive too most of the time...

-seal
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@Lady:

> That's assuming Eclipse C even comes. I haven't heard squat from that project in months.

![](http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/Alexanderthegreat91/youbestlisten.png)

@Sealbreaker:

> well, and soon psithyroi will surely be released. with their awesome engine that nobody has even seen but still is 100% complete, ready for making a game out of it that is SOOOOO different from other sidescrollers

**PROBLEM, PSITHYROI?**
![](http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y23/Alexanderthegreat91/trollface.png)
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Ever since Eclipse Evolution came out, there has been a major requirement for game designers to do some source work themselves. Total Eclipse was probably the last all-in-one engine release, in that you could do a lot of stuff without needing to edit the source; but even then you had to use the scripting system.

Scripting is basically diet programming. The only benefit of it is you do not need compilers or development suites; that's probably the main reason I never got into Eclipse source, was because I never bothered to acquire VB6\. Writing up scripts in Notepad and plugging them into my Eclipse games was much more accessible, although that left me at the mercy of the Engine's general bugs and limitations (scripting was pretty nice but there was only so much you could fix with it).
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@Lady:

> That's assuming Eclipse C even comes. I haven't heard squat from that project in months.

Of course Eclipse C will be released, lets just wait.

![](http://www.photographicsolutionsaberdeen.co.uk/css/images/portfolio/thumbnail_large/web0028.jpg)
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@Captain:

> Why the hell would _anyone_ create an entire **2D** game in assembly? That is retarded.

of course they won't. I said if it continues at this rate.  Ever paid attention to a trend?  At some point, they just can't go on because they've gone as far as they will go.
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