Arrow Type Vs. Bow Type

[shadowwulf]

Say I have three bow types.
Wooden, Steel, and Silver.

Assuming we aren't using separate items and using limited ammo…

Should all bows fire wooden arrows or should the arrow type match the bow?

[Carim123]

You could have multiple types of ammo, and have the bow have added effects on said ammo.

Take Terraria for example, using the Molten Fury. When you use standard wooden arrows with them, it sets 'em alight, and burns whatever it hits.

[renzo]

If it's an integral part of the game then I would say yes, have wooden/steel/silver arrows.
If you're putting in supernatural elements such as werewolves and demons that can only be killed with specific materials, having different kinds of arrows can add an engaging strategy to the game.

But if it's only for aesthetic reasons then I wouldn't bother, they're just arrows.

[shadowwulf]

@Serenade
Either method can allow for effects and enhancements.

But mechanically speaking, does it make sense to run around with a high end bow(silver), but use wooden arrows?

@Renzo
I'm trying to find any documentation on game theory research on the subject but haven't found any.

I believe down the road I will have limited arrows and thus rolled around the idea of arrow types. This also brings to mind which would be the enchanted of the two, the bow or the arrow? I would think damage wise the arrow would be enchanted, while the bow only gives a small bonus. The bow rather can be enchanted to either not use arrows and shoot magic, or give the wielder other benefits.

As for (oblivion references aside) certain mobs taking damage only from special items, I can't say that I have decided to go down that road. It would add a nice challenge to adventuring, but would also be a major downfall for low-end players. If a low-end player is ambushed by these special npcs, they would have absolutely no chance.

[Carim123]

No.

But, combat-wise. if you present bonuses, that make you want to choose between the stronger arrow, or the weaker arrow with added effects, to the point it's fairly balanced, then it's down to the player if they want to go all-out offensive, or defensive, and de-buff the victim before atttacking.

[renzo]

@Shadowwulf:

> As for (oblivion references aside) certain mobs taking damage only from special items, I can't say that I have decided to go down that road. It would add a nice challenge to adventuring, but would also be a major downfall for low-end players. If a low-end player is ambushed by these special npcs, they would have absolutely no chance.

Yes, but I suppose that is a part of game design to not send those special NPCs that early into the game, or to make material planning something to think about at the very beginning of the game.
Have blacksmiths sell silver weapons as well and have characters explain the purpose of them.  Another way to ease them into it would be to have enemies that are easier to kill with silver weapons instead of being the only way to kill them.
@Shadowwulf:

> I believe down the road I will have limited arrows and thus rolled around the idea of arrow types. This also brings to mind which would be the enchanted of the two, the bow or the arrow? I would think damage wise the arrow would be enchanted, while the bow only gives a small bonus. The bow rather can be enchanted to either not use arrows and shoot magic, or give the wielder other benefits.

As far as enchantment, a combination of enchanted bows and arrows could work, an example could be a flaming bow using zombie-slaying arrows.  The bow would light the arrow on fire to give it that added fire damage.  While the arrows are what deal the damage it is the bow that sent them flying, I see the bow as the most likely choice to enhance with damage modifiers but arrows are a limited ammunition, having to buy 100 +5 arrows everytime you need to restock would be incredibly expensive to the player and all he wants to do is keep up with equipment appropriate for his level.  Having arrow enchantments limited to specific uses would make it more economically available to the player.

[Robin]

No one likes micro-managing their equipment. Arrow collection is just more busy work. If a game requires me to collect arrows I simply won't use a bow.

[Rob Janes]

I'm with Robin on this one. 

Blizzard got rid of Ammo, and it was one of their best decisions in my opinion.  I finally played a hunter.  Just have your 'ranged' weapon and projectile texture for that weapon but forget collecting ammo. ;)

[shadowwulf]

Having limited arrows be economy friendly is why I haven't committed to the idea yet.

I kind of like the following as a base plan.

Wooden Arrows:take 100% of bow's enchantment, but have a low base damage and weak to 'magical' npcs.
Steel Arrows:take 75% of a bow's enchantment, have high base damage, but are weak to 'magical' npcs.
Silver Arrows:take 25% of a bow's enchantment, but have moderate base damage, and strong against 'magical' npcs.

So lets say we have a steel bow:Base damage is 5 and adds +10 fire damage
Target is a werewolf.

Wooden arrow would yield:
+5 base(bow)
+10 fire(bow)
+5 base(arrow)
=20 subtotal
-50% for 'magical' npc
=10 total

Steel arrow would yield:
+5 base(bow)
+7 fire(bow)
+10 base(arrow)
=22 subtotal
-50% for 'magical' npc
=11 total

Silver arrow would yield:
+5 base(bow)
+2 fire(bow)
+10 base(arrow)
=17 subtotal
-0% for 'magical' npc
=17 total

That is just a rough run through with no real tweaking.
Sounds like a solid base to work with though.

"Warning - while you were typing 2 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post."

I think to offset the 'work' of collecting arrows, keeping them relatively cheap and maybe with crafting have them as an easy option.

@robin: Didn't you use arrows a lot in Terraria?

[Robin]

@Shadowwulf:

> @robin: Didn't you use arrows a lot in Terraria?

I tried it for about 5 minutes with Rory and Anna on a private server and never touched it again. I barely used my tools, never mind a bow and arrow.

@Shadowwulf:

> I think to offset the 'work' of collecting arrows, keeping them relatively cheap and maybe with crafting have them as an easy option.

Then why have them at all? It's just something else I need to think about. They're useless.

[shadowwulf]

Looking at it from the target's point of view: I don't like the idea that you can run away forever firing off shots.
From a game mechanics point of view: Melee is limited by Stamina, Spells are limited by Mana, Ranged is limited by ???
It seems easier to balance by limiting arrows rather than by making a ranged player have crazy low hp.

Ya know, I still don't know if, assuming unlimited arrows, if it looks better to have all wooden arrows or matched arrows….

[Robin]

You don't need to pay for either of those. Nor do you need to spend time building/buying items for it.

Why can't rangers just be limited by stamina as well?

[shadowwulf]

Ranged weapons tend to be low damage, but fast.
Ranged players tend to have high stamina as they need to be able to outrun targets.
If a player has high stamina and it is required of his weapon also, he has only the choice to stand and fight OR attack as much as he can.
A melee player would have high HP to fall back on, while a caster would be using MP for offense limitation and a mix of SP to run away(defense).

Side note: In my game, if you attack with a weapon, it uses stamina to limit attacking rather than simply relying on weapon speed. Weapon speed is reserved for how long it takes to swing with the weapon or ready it for use again.

[Robin]

/shrug. It's up to you. Personally I just don't like that kind of micromanaging. Melee generally is the most common option for players simply because it doesn't have any of that stuff. You get a weapon and you can always use that weapon.

If it works for your game them by all means do it like you want.

[shadowwulf]

Personally I feel casting requires too much micromanaging.
Spell type vs npc type.
AoE vs target.
Offensive vs Defensive.
Buff timing.

Generally with games I find that Melee is designed for newbies, Ranged for average, and Magic for advanced. With that said, it doesnt mean Magic users are above Melee, just require more discipline to master. A good Melee character could run in and demolish a surprised Magic user.

Taking in all the rest of the aspects of the game, I think multiple arrow types is something too look into, but for now I think I will animate same type arrows as bows.

[LeaRae]

@Shadowwulf:

> Say I have three bow types.
> Wooden, Steel, and Silver.
>
> Assuming we aren't using separate items and using limited ammo…
>
> Should all bows fire wooden arrows or should the arrow type match the bow?

Silver is awfully soft, it doesn't have the tensile strength to make a bow.  At least make your choices realistic; it's all about the carbon composites ;)

[shadowwulf]

Every rpg you find will have silver weapons.
My guess is they are silver decorated or silver plated rather than full silver.

And when it comes to arrows, anything flying fast enough will impale your target.

[Bonk]

IMO, a bow shouldn't require collecting arrows, it limits combat and makes grinding even more tedious.

If you have a wooden bow, fire wooden arrows with steel tips, if you have a mythril bow, fire wooden arrows with mythril tips, so on and so forth, but then you should have a mega-legendary bow made of silver that fires silver arrows with diamond tips.

If you did need silver to kill a werewolf then make an entirely different arrow type that's purely silver and comes as a single item that fires infinite arrows.

You'd need to make arrows weaker than mellee, though, otherwise the distance is a huge advantage and makes the mellee crowd obsolete.

[shadowwulf]

of course.

Melee = close, moderate speed, moderate damage
Ranged = far, high speed, low damage
Cast= close and far, low speed, high damage

everyone knows that.

[Bonk]

Not really. It all depends on your combat ways. Most RPGs go for your skill triangle, but it all depends on the combat experience you want.

People tend to go for the ways you say without thinking it through, but individual customisation or even a complete rewrite of the system might be needed depending on your game's themes or ideas. I don't know anything about your project, though, so I wouldn't know.

[shadowwulf]

for the most part i take a realistic approach.
but then apply a d20 style of determining chances.

the combat flows pretty nicely and makes for actually having to pay attention to the flow of battle.